AP, ABC & NBC have decalred Hillary Presumptive Nominee

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Re: AP, ABC & NBC have decalred Hillary Presumptive Nominee

Postby OscarGuy » Tue Jun 07, 2016 12:11 pm

I think we should get rid of Caucuses first. They are far more undemocratic than superdelegates.
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Re: AP, ABC & NBC have decalred Hillary Presumptive Nominee

Postby Big Magilla » Tue Jun 07, 2016 11:30 am

If the Repubs had superdelegates they might have a solution to their Trump problem.
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Re: AP, ABC & NBC have decalred Hillary Presumptive Nominee

Postby Sonic Youth » Tue Jun 07, 2016 10:54 am

Can we all agree on one thing?

Superdelegates suck and should be abolished.
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Re: AP, ABC & NBC have decalred Hillary Presumptive Nominee

Postby OscarGuy » Tue Jun 07, 2016 10:48 am

Sorry, I had gotten that impression from your statement.

On your second point, I wonder if that's necessarily true. The Greatest Evil that is Trump will allow forgiveness from most. On top of that, I think that most Sanders supporters, even the ones who actively deny this will be over until the Supers vote in July, believe that the writing has long been on the wall, legitimately, not stolen as some of them suggest.

I haven't seen nearly the full throated vitriol against the media this time as I have in many of the recent situations. I think they knew it was coming. Rachel Maddow even warned of it last before the weekend. I think they may try to use that as a wedge issue, but ultimately, after everyone sees just how far apart the two candidates are in the end, both in terms of pledged delegates and in terms of superdelegates, arguments to the contrary would amount to refuting the will of the voters, which would make Sanders look like nothing but a hypocrite, which will turn off many of those who supported him in the first place because they thought he was something different of a politician when he really is just like all of them, just with bigger and more laudable ideals.
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Re: AP, ABC & NBC have decalred Hillary Presumptive Nominee

Postby Sonic Youth » Tue Jun 07, 2016 8:03 am

OscarGuy wrote:This wasn't the DNC's doing. This was entirely the media's decision to declare the victory.


There's not much in your whole post that I disagree with except for two things. First, the quote above was exactly the point I made earlier. I can't tell if you thought I meant otherwise or not, but I just wanted to make sure no one else gets that impression. Second, I can see this situation pissing off ALL Sanders supporters, not just the jerkiest ones. Whatever effect this may or may not have later tonight - and it may have zero effect - it looks like a deliberate preemption. Whether it was or not, that's how it looks, and it confirms previous arguments that the media acted in bad faith towards Sanders all along.
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Re: AP, ABC & NBC have decalred Hillary Presumptive Nominee

Postby OscarGuy » Tue Jun 07, 2016 6:20 am

This wasn't the DNC's doing. This was entirely the media's decision to declare the victory. We all know, which means the DNC knows too, that this kind o thing was bound to piss off/fire up Sanders and his jerkiest supporters, so they would never have allowed such a call to be made. With all the articles I've seen about people saying the media was going to be calling the race after the NJ polls closed and all the furor that caused, everyone should have known in advance that this kind of reporting would create tension. Which is also another possible reason the media decided to do it now. They love drama and creating the drama themselves is something I can see the modern media doing.

What irritates me most is that people are already starting to claim that this will depress voter turnout. Yet, there's more likely a chance that A) this is just going to energize Sanders supporters more and might just give him a narrow victory over Clinton when he was likely to lose California in the first place; and B) as the post-victory primaries in Nebraska and Washington (both with much earlier caucuses), even Clinton's supporters aren't going to let a "done deal" prevent them from going to the polls. As such, I'm certain the results tomorrow night will be largely similar to those that emerged had the race not been called.

After all, Clinton supporters haven't put themselves into Denial Mode over the chance that their candidate will win. Sanders supporters have gone from "we're in this to make a difference" to "we're in this to win it" to "we have to wait for the last state to vote, giving the voters an opportunity to have their say" to "we hate the superdelegates and the rigged voting system and the supers should be done away with" to "the superdelegates must overrule the will of the people because Sanders has a better chance against Trump."

There were some earlier this year claiming that Trump and Sanders were a lot a like and while I saw some of those comparisons, I never would have made the comparison because I thought, in the end, Sanders was a much more respectable candidate and person than that. Nowadays, I have lost all my faith and appreciation for the man because he seems to have gained power and deluded himself into the idea that he ever had a chance. Either that or he has the absolute worst advisers behind him cajoling him into this kind of behavior. It's disappointing.

The one constant that remains in this race is Clinton's consistency. She may not come off well to those who consider her "dishonest," but she's a politician and we have to expect that. What drives my support for her more now than ever is that through all of this, she's kept her head held high and with only a few minor instances of losing her temper, she has remained calm, cool, collected and undeniably presidential.
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Re: AP, ABC & NBC have decalred Hillary Presumptive Nominee

Postby Sonic Youth » Mon Jun 06, 2016 11:14 pm

Sabin wrote:Does this mean an Obama endorsement tomorrow night?


Probably the day after. Once he does, it'll shift the dynamics and then all this nonsense about how Bernie is more likely to beat Trump will be done.

Look, I know the DNC isn't supposed to be the media's master. If they feel it's in their best interests and the public's best interest to publish a story, then they shouldn't be told not to. I wouldn't want that either. But this feels like publishing a state's poll results before the polls have closed, or the most powerful super-delegate declaring the race over. Yes, Hillary's going to win anyway. I know that, and you know that. But not everybody knows it. I'd rather they found out tomorrow or Wed. rather than tonight.
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Re: AP, ABC & NBC have decalred Hillary Presumptive Nominee

Postby Sabin » Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:50 pm

Does this mean an Obama endorsement tomorrow night?
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Re: AP, ABC & NBC have decalred Hillary Presumptive Nominee

Postby OscarGuy » Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:42 pm

What's likely to happen is after the primaries tomorrow, Obama will announce his support for president-elect...I mean Democratic Party nominee Hillary Clinton and it will become even more difficult for Sanders to foment rebellion and destroy the Democrats from within. She would have been declared the winner after the polls closed in New Jersey anyway regardless of what the AP had to say now.

I don't know why they had to announce early, but it may just be that they had to wait for Puerto Rico to finish tabulating on Sunday night and most news organizations aren't going to call superdelegates on a Sunday, so my guess is they spent all day today reaching out to the uncommitted and finally got commitments from them. They could have waited a day, but all three organizations, if they came to the decision at the same time, would no doubt want to be the first to release the article, thus AP made the call.
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Re: AP, ABC & NBC have decalred Hillary Presumptive Nominee

Postby Sabin » Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:38 pm

Endlessly frustrating. I was foolish for thinking California would be different. Every major primary date has showcased the same old song: Hillary Clinton decisively winning amidst egregiously icky circumstances. Now it's even unlikelier that the mathematical impossibility of a Sanders win will persuade his camp to accept defeat. Just because the other side is guilty of foul play doesn't mean you won.
"If you are marching with white nationalists, you are by definition not a very nice person. If Malala Yousafzai had taken part in that rally, you'd have to say 'Okay, I guess Malala sucks now.'" ~ John Oliver

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Re: AP, ABC & NBC have decalred Hillary Presumptive Nominee

Postby Sonic Youth » Mon Jun 06, 2016 10:24 pm

"It's all about the numbers" isn't the point. The last thing this race needs is the impression - real or not - that tomorrow's voter participation has been affected by this story.
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Re: AP, ABC & NBC have decalred Hillary Presumptive Nominee

Postby Big Magilla » Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:56 pm

NBC says it's all about the numbers. They have her at 1 over. Supposedly all three new organizations arrived at their conclusions separately. It was Puerto Rico plus independent confirmation with super delegates who haven't declared publicly.

Clinton's not happy with the premature announcement, Bernie is pissed, but there it is.
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Re: AP, ABC & NBC have decalred Hillary Presumptive Nominee

Postby Sonic Youth » Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:20 pm

Ok, seriously... couldn't the AP have shut the fuck up for two days? She hasn't received the majority of pledged delegates yet. They haven't voted in California yet. The Bernie supporters have been harping about how the media has been trying to rig the election, and then they go and do this and give the Bernie bros their strongest argument yet.
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Re: AP, ABC & NBC have decalred Hillary Presumptive Nominee

Postby Sonic Youth » Mon Jun 06, 2016 9:05 pm

That was.... anticlimactic.
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AP, ABC & NBC have decalred Hillary Presumptive Nominee

Postby Big Magilla » Mon Jun 06, 2016 8:29 pm

(AP) Striding into history, Hillary Clinton will become the first woman to top the presidential ticket of a major U.S. political party, capturing commitments Monday from the number of delegates needed to become the Democrats’ presumptive nominee.

The victory arrived nearly eight years to the day after she conceded her first White House campaign to Barack Obama. Back then, she famously noted her inability to “shatter that highest, hardest glass ceiling.”

Campaigning this time as the loyal successor to the nation’s first black president, Clinton held off a surprisingly strong challenge from Vermont Sen. Bernie Sanders. He mobilized millions with a fervently liberal message and his insurgent candidacy revealed a deep level of national frustration with politics-as-usual, even among Democrats who have controlled the White House since 2009.

Clinton, the former secretary of state, New York senator and first lady, reached the 2,383 delegates needed to become the presumptive Democratic nominee on Monday with a decisive weekend victory in Puerto Rico and a burst of last-minute support from superdelegates. Those are party officials and officeholders, many of them eager to wrap up the primary amid preference polls showing her in a tightening race with presumptive GOP nominee Donald Trump.

Clinton has 1,812 pledged delegates won in primaries and caucuses
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