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Re: Life Under Trump

Postby Greg » Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:24 pm

Reza wrote:Here's another perspective claiming Trump is no fascist but a champion for the forgotten millions. Makes sense too.

http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIwscL0mTQ


That article actually said one of the reasons the forgotten millions voted for Trump was to dismantle Wall Street regulations. Good Lord.
Bankers don’t like budget deficits because they compete with bank loans as a source of growth.

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Re: Life Under Trump

Postby ITALIANO » Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:03 pm

Reza wrote:
ITALIANO wrote:
Johnny Guitar wrote: IF Hillary Clinton had lost the popular vote but won the electoral vote, a lot of liberals would be gladly rejoicing, and there would be a lot of very official and SINCERE thinkpieces explaining how the electoral college is a valuable necessity for the safe preservation of democracy in a large, diverse nation-state.


Exactly, and I will say even more: if Hilary Clinton had won (by a narrow margin, as this was such a surprisingly close race) both the popular and the electoral vote, we'd be obviously relieved - but the problem would still be there. There'd still be a HUGE portion of Americans who thought Trump should be THEIR President. And ignoring this - as some still seem to do - means that A Trump would sooner or later happen anyway. This was my point. Such America exists - it existed even before Trump decided to get into politics. It didn't have a name, it maybe didn't seem so pervasive - but it existed. And it existed - this is shocking to some here - even on this board, which is mostly composed of open-minded, well-educated and, certainly by American standards, left-wing people (in Europe, as you certainly know, Hilary Clinton would be a moderate).
It existed in their way of thinking, it came out instinctively in their reactions - I saw it. The point is: why didn't they? And why are they so angry when I humbly, shyly even, try to explain this?

In Italy there's mafia, right? We all know that. There are lots of movies about mafia, so you must be familiar with it. It's mostly in the South of the country, it kills people, it's a big economical (though illegal) power with its own rules, etc. Of course, not all Italians are mafioso. Part of us are - a minority. Yet, we'd be naive and hypocritical if we didn't recognize that, especially in some areas of Italy, there's a diffused "mafioso" mentality - a way of thinking which, while not necessarily connected with the mafia as a criminal institution, is clearly the fertile ground where it can, and did, develop. It's in our behaviors, in our way of seeing family, the male figure, the approach to work, etc. Difficult to explain to foreigners (and you don't find it in movies maybe) - but we can see it. It has its historical, social, cultural, economical reasons, yet it must be contrasted, and it can't be contrasted if we don't fiirst realize that it's there, inside us.

This is what, it seems to me, Americans can't do, even now (there are exceptions of course): It's always someone else's fault. Fate, even, or the election system. Or on this board, Italiano, who should be ignored, evicted. I find this fascinating, but also EXTREMELY dangerous. Because if you look at it, it is exactly the way Donald Trump thinks - and behaves; the enemy is outside, always. And I think that, in order to prevent a Trump from happening, one should "eliminate" the Trump aspect inside himself or herself. And then maybe analyze why this aspect exists (and, like it or not, is so dominant in America - yes, Mister Tee, I know, he got 1000 votes less than Hilary in Alabama or wherever. Please...).

Donald Trump is a fascist. Trust me, I'm Italian, I know a few things about fascism. And he's a fascist. America has a fasist President. Now, I know that, unlike Italy back then, the US (and even Italy today) has ways to prevent him from becoming a fascist dictator - thank God. But this doesn't mean that he can't be dangerous anyway. And you are right - my European approach may sound pessimistic compared to America's famous optimism. Pessimism may have its historical reasons but it's never too healthy, and optimism is a better approach to life - I admit this. Still, if optimism doesn't come after a serious, uncompromising analysis of what the are and why we are like this, Zach, it can also be an act of self-deceit. I hppe you agree on this.


Here's another perspective claiming Trump is no fascist but a champion for the forgotten millions. Makes sense too.

http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIwscL0mTQ


I don't know... There's something in me which doesnt find the idea that a multi-millionaire ISN'T part of the elite very convincing...

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Re: Life Under Trump

Postby Reza » Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:04 pm

ITALIANO wrote:
Johnny Guitar wrote: IF Hillary Clinton had lost the popular vote but won the electoral vote, a lot of liberals would be gladly rejoicing, and there would be a lot of very official and SINCERE thinkpieces explaining how the electoral college is a valuable necessity for the safe preservation of democracy in a large, diverse nation-state.


Exactly, and I will say even more: if Hilary Clinton had won (by a narrow margin, as this was such a surprisingly close race) both the popular and the electoral vote, we'd be obviously relieved - but the problem would still be there. There'd still be a HUGE portion of Americans who thought Trump should be THEIR President. And ignoring this - as some still seem to do - means that A Trump would sooner or later happen anyway. This was my point. Such America exists - it existed even before Trump decided to get into politics. It didn't have a name, it maybe didn't seem so pervasive - but it existed. And it existed - this is shocking to some here - even on this board, which is mostly composed of open-minded, well-educated and, certainly by American standards, left-wing people (in Europe, as you certainly know, Hilary Clinton would be a moderate).
It existed in their way of thinking, it came out instinctively in their reactions - I saw it. The point is: why didn't they? And why are they so angry when I humbly, shyly even, try to explain this?

In Italy there's mafia, right? We all know that. There are lots of movies about mafia, so you must be familiar with it. It's mostly in the South of the country, it kills people, it's a big economical (though illegal) power with its own rules, etc. Of course, not all Italians are mafioso. Part of us are - a minority. Yet, we'd be naive and hypocritical if we didn't recognize that, especially in some areas of Italy, there's a diffused "mafioso" mentality - a way of thinking which, while not necessarily connected with the mafia as a criminal institution, is clearly the fertile ground where it can, and did, develop. It's in our behaviors, in our way of seeing family, the male figure, the approach to work, etc. Difficult to explain to foreigners (and you don't find it in movies maybe) - but we can see it. It has its historical, social, cultural, economical reasons, yet it must be contrasted, and it can't be contrasted if we don't fiirst realize that it's there, inside us.

This is what, it seems to me, Americans can't do, even now (there are exceptions of course): It's always someone else's fault. Fate, even, or the election system. Or on this board, Italiano, who should be ignored, evicted. I find this fascinating, but also EXTREMELY dangerous. Because if you look at it, it is exactly the way Donald Trump thinks - and behaves; the enemy is outside, always. And I think that, in order to prevent a Trump from happening, one should "eliminate" the Trump aspect inside himself or herself. And then maybe analyze why this aspect exists (and, like it or not, is so dominant in America - yes, Mister Tee, I know, he got 1000 votes less than Hilary in Alabama or wherever. Please...).

Donald Trump is a fascist. Trust me, I'm Italian, I know a few things about fascism. And he's a fascist. America has a fasist President. Now, I know that, unlike Italy back then, the US (and even Italy today) has ways to prevent him from becoming a fascist dictator - thank God. But this doesn't mean that he can't be dangerous anyway. And you are right - my European approach may sound pessimistic compared to America's famous optimism. Pessimism may have its historical reasons but it's never too healthy, and optimism is a better approach to life - I admit this. Still, if optimism doesn't come after a serious, uncompromising analysis of what the are and why we are like this, Zach, it can also be an act of self-deceit. I hppe you agree on this.


Here's another perspective claiming Trump is no fascist but a champion for the forgotten millions. Makes sense too.

http://google.com/newsstand/s/CBIwscL0mTQ

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Re: Life Under Trump

Postby ITALIANO » Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:46 am

Johnny Guitar wrote: IF Hillary Clinton had lost the popular vote but won the electoral vote, a lot of liberals would be gladly rejoicing, and there would be a lot of very official and SINCERE thinkpieces explaining how the electoral college is a valuable necessity for the safe preservation of democracy in a large, diverse nation-state.


Exactly, and I will say even more: if Hilary Clinton had won (by a narrow margin, as this was such a surprisingly close race) both the popular and the electoral vote, we'd be obviously relieved - but the problem would still be there. There'd still be a HUGE portion of Americans who thought Trump should be THEIR President. And ignoring this - as some still seem to do - means that A Trump would sooner or later happen anyway. This was my point. Such America exists - it existed even before Trump decided to get into politics. It didn't have a name, it maybe didn't seem so pervasive - but it existed. And it existed - this is shocking to some here - even on this board, which is mostly composed of open-minded, well-educated and, certainly by American standards, left-wing people (in Europe, as you certainly know, Hilary Clinton would be a moderate).
It existed in their way of thinking, it came out instinctively in their reactions - I saw it. The point is: why didn't they? And why are they so angry when I humbly, shyly even, try to explain this?

In Italy there's mafia, right? We all know that. There are lots of movies about mafia, so you must be familiar with it. It's mostly in the South of the country, it kills people, it's a big economical (though illegal) power with its own rules, etc. Of course, not all Italians are mafioso. Part of us are - a minority. Yet, we'd be naive and hypocritical if we didn't recognize that, especially in some areas of Italy, there's a diffused "mafioso" mentality - a way of thinking which, while not necessarily connected with the mafia as a criminal institution, is clearly the fertile ground where it can, and did, develop. It's in our behaviors, in our way of seeing family, the male figure, the approach to work, etc. Difficult to explain to foreigners (and you don't find it in movies maybe) - but we can see it. It has its historical, social, cultural, economical reasons, yet it must be contrasted, and it can't be contrasted if we don't fiirst realize that it's there, inside us.

This is what, it seems to me, Americans can't do, even now (there are exceptions of course): It's always someone else's fault. Fate, even, or the election system. Or on this board, Italiano, who should be ignored, evicted. I find this fascinating, but also EXTREMELY dangerous. Because if you look at it, it is exactly the way Donald Trump thinks - and behaves; the enemy is outside, always. And I think that, in order to prevent a Trump from happening, one should "eliminate" the Trump aspect inside himself or herself. And then maybe analyze why this aspect exists (and, like it or not, is so dominant in America - yes, Mister Tee, I know, he got 1000 votes less than Hilary in Alabama or wherever. Please...).

Donald Trump is a fascist. Trust me, I'm Italian, I know a few things about fascism. And he's a fascist. America has a fasist President. Now, I know that, unlike Italy back then, the US (and even Italy today) has ways to prevent him from becoming a fascist dictator - thank God. But this doesn't mean that he can't be dangerous anyway. And you are right - my European approach may sound pessimistic compared to America's famous optimism. Pessimism may have its historical reasons but it's never too healthy, and optimism is a better approach to life - I admit this. Still, if optimism doesn't come after a serious, uncompromising analysis of what the are and why we are like this, Zach, it can also be an act of self-deceit. I hppe you agree on this.

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Re: Life Under Trump

Postby Johnny Guitar » Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:47 pm

Bill O'Reilly: "Putin's a killer..."
Donald Trump: "Lot of killers--what do you think, is our country so innocent?"

:shock:

(In this case, Trump is correct. Maybe not for all the right reasons, or to all the right ends...)

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Re: Life Under Trump

Postby Johnny Guitar » Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:32 pm

I think one of the problems at the heart of contemporary America, one that has nothing to do with Trump per se, could be summarized like this. IF Hillary Clinton had lost the popular vote but won the electoral vote, a lot of liberals would be gladly rejoicing, and there would be a lot of very official and SINCERE thinkpieces explaining how the electoral college is a valuable necessity for the safe preservation of democracy in a large, diverse nation-state. Only a very small fraction of the US citizens decrying the electoral college system as anti-democratic, right now, would have publicly felt the same way had Clinton won. And, on the other side, the right-wingers who are calling out "get over it!" would have certainly, obviously been up in arms in protest (of sorts - conservatism is not a value system as temperamentally prone or as geographically given to mass protest as is left/liberalism) about the whole affair. They would have SINCERELY decried the electoral college. I think if we are honest we can all acknowledge this double standard. There's plenty of evidence for it. It's just one symbol of a larger discursive & ideological problem characterizing America.

(Another example? Look at how both the right and the left took turns, OBLIVIOUSLY, throughout the 2016 arguing about whether the US election system was or could be rigged. Side A: "It's rigged in favor of the other side!" Side B: "No it's not. Claiming that is, itself, deeply offensive and treasonous to our great country." Both sides expressed either position depending on the news cycle! And they just went back in forth. Nobody seemed to notice or care.)

Only a very small number of Americans exist, I venture, who are able to hold this sort of counterfactual about our own hypocrisy in their minds, without also being cynical, apathetic defeatists. Does this make sense? Europeans by contrast strike me as being imbued with a certain pessimism & pragmatism that isn't pervasive to their entire beings. Americans are very often pragmatic in our own ways, but retain a kind of hopefulness in political discourse, whatever their side, that boils down to a "real America" or "true values," etc. This isn't always a bad thing, mind you ...

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Re: Life Under Trump

Postby Big Magilla » Thu Feb 02, 2017 9:26 pm

The Muslim ban may have been just the tip of the iceberg regarding Bannon and Trump's plans for immigrants:

http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/n ... 43944.html

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Re: Life Under Trump

Postby Big Magilla » Thu Feb 02, 2017 6:14 pm

At first I thought this was an Onion article, but it isn't.

http://www.politicususa.com/2016/12/29/ ... ience.html

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Re: Life Under Trump

Postby The Original BJ » Thu Feb 02, 2017 1:24 pm

Greg wrote:Here's some comic relief.

Trump Touts Apprentice Ratings, Tells Prayer Breakfast: 'Pray For Arnold':

http://www.npr.org/2017/02/02/513052930 ... for-arnold


Nothing this cretin does is either comical or a relief.

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Re: Life Under Trump

Postby Greg » Thu Feb 02, 2017 12:54 pm

Here's some comic relief.

Trump Touts Apprentice Ratings, Tells Prayer Breakfast: 'Pray For Arnold':

http://www.npr.org/2017/02/02/513052930 ... for-arnold
Bankers don’t like budget deficits because they compete with bank loans as a source of growth.

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Re: Life Under Trump

Postby Big Magilla » Wed Feb 01, 2017 11:57 am


Greg
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Re: Life Under Trump

Postby Greg » Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:44 pm

Trump fires acting AG after she declines to defend travel ban:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/30/politics/ ... index.html
Bankers don’t like budget deficits because they compete with bank loans as a source of growth.

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Re: Life Under Trump

Postby ITALIANO » Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:00 pm

OscarGuy wrote:It's just amazing how like Trump Italiano is.


:D

So there's a bit of Trump in me, too! Well, maybe, who knows... After all I am a man of these times.

Don't be too sensitive, Oscar Guy, please. I'm sorry if you felt offended but I really didn't mean to attack you - and even less your very good work on this board. And of course anyone can ignore me - including you. But maybe, if you get to the root of what I try to say, you will realize that it's not so strange nor so tough. And you know what? It's not even anti- American. Un-American maybe. But there is a world outside America, Oscar Guy. And even Trump won't be able to block it out.

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Re: Life Under Trump

Postby Heksagon » Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:12 am

I hope you don't plan to quit the whole board because of this thread :(

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Re: Life Under Trump

Postby OscarGuy » Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:30 am

It's just amazing how like Trump Italiano is. Narcissistic. Believes in alternative facts. Claims opinions are fact and facts are opinion. Demeans and attacks anyone who doesn't agree with him. Claims to be the only one who sees the truth. Refuses to acknowledge when he might be wrong. He's a Nationalist (or at least Regionalist). As much as he claims the rest of us are like Trump, he exudes those qualities more so than any one of the rest of us. We have our faults, but you can always count on Italiano to take the same precise tack to every issue. If you don't agree with him, he'll single you out for scorn, or belittling, and never treat you any less reprehensibly in the future. You can ignore him and his opinion, but he will continue to try to insinuate himself into every conversation to make it about himself and his opinions and no one else's. If we were all being rounded up into concentration camps, he'd be doing nothing but saying "I told you so" and complaining that we deserved our lot.

Ain't no one got time for that. Like Trump, I recommend that each of us put him on ignore so that he will have nothing but his loving cheering section to keep him company. What a lonely world it would be for him.

Every day I see the lack of participation on the board and wonder why I keep it open. I keep it open for people like Tee and Sonic and Sabin and Magilla and the myriad others who treat each other with respect. I don't participate much anymore for this very reason. I get tired of being attacked. I apparently can never say anything right and will be ruthlessly attacked for it. You want to know why I haven't participated, here's precisely why you haven't. I don't have the time, the patience, or the desire to be in that kind of environment anymore.

I could claim that it was because I was busy, but honestly. Who wants to be some place where you are mistreated and attacked at regular intervals. A place where if you dare say something contradictory, you're pilloried for your opinions. I get enough of that shit on Facebook. There, at least, you can block it out. I'm not going to tolerate it in my own home. And that's what this place used to be. I no longer see it that way. Best of luck to you all. Magilla can handle moderation duties just fine. If you want to talk to me or discuss movies with me, there's Facebook. You can also private message me on FB or here. I may still drop in, but I have no desire to continue taking an unnecessary, unwarranted, and demeaning beating every time I share an opinion. I apologize to everyone whom I ever did that to. For the last few years I've understood precisely how you felt about that and it was never something I intended. So long, farewell, auf wiedersehen, goodbye.
Wesley Lovell
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - Benjamin Franklin


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