Everything Is Great and Amazing

ITALIANO
Emeritus
Posts: 3913
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 1:58 pm
Location: MILAN
Contact:

Re: Life Under Trump

Postby ITALIANO » Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:17 am

Mister Tee wrote:
OscarGuy wrote: It was rather a small number. His margin of loss was less than 1,000,000 among those states combined (I don't recall the exact numbers).

Actually, WAY less: 10,704 votes in MI, 22, 748 in WI, and 44, 292 in PA -- a total of 77,744 votes spread over three states counted more than Hillary's margin of 2,868,520.


Mamma mia. This is exactly the way of thinking that I find hopelessly American - this, and thinking that my main point was about the size of the protests, while of course there was so much more. But it's clearly easy to talk about numbers (the way a bank clerk would do during a big economical crisus which is clearly about more than numbers). And even easier to see the enemy everywhere - except in ourselves. This is exactly the way Donand Trump would react to my very reasonable thoughts. Superficially.

So I will be more explicit. I have to. I will be accused once again of being rude, anti-American, etc - but if you guys didn't get my point till now, ok, I will be clear. I think (I am actually sure) that there's alot of Donald Trump in Mister Tee. A LOT. (He's certainly closer to Donald Trump than to Italiano - and I should know, as I AM Italiano). There's alot of Donald Trump in Sonic Youth. And so on. Oh, there's obviously even more than alot of Donald Trump in Oscar Guy!!! I mean, really, just read some of his posts from even just a few years ago - his approach and even some of the words he used against me were exactly the same the Donald Trump uses today. Exactly the same (I might even find some of those posts). Ignoring this would be a big mistake - and a mistake that Americans today conveniently make. But ignoring thinngs rarely solves problems. It actually makes them worse.

Being on this board has helped me to understand America, and for this I must thank you all. Maybe this is why I'm not so surprised now. But you LIVE there, and you read books, you see movies... Can't you understand that it's not enough NOT TO VOTE FOR TRUMP to be innocent? Can't you see that you are part of a certain system, and that for example NOT to demonstrate against death penalty or going in the streets to celebrate the killing of a terrorist IS being part of that system? It's easier, I know - but problematic thinking, while difficult and not for the lazy, is the only way of changing things. I've done that all my life. Why canìt you? Only because unlike me you don't study philosophy at school? No, I don't thinh it's just that.

I'm not saying this to complain about the past, believe me - I couldn't care less. Try to understand what I mean please. A mature country should stop trying to find scapegoats. A mature country should analyze itself, its inner contradictions, its more subtle problems - problems which by the way didnt start a few months ago with Trump's elections, but years, maybe decades ago (education, as others have pointed out here, is one of them for sure). The very fact that you can't do that (and that, once again, the enemy is Italiano plus a few farmers from North Carolina) shows how close to Trump, deep inside, you actually are - and that there will be even more Trumps in America's future. Which, sadly, is also the world's future.

Mister Tee
Laureate
Posts: 6264
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 2:57 pm
Location: NYC
Contact:

Re: Life Under Trump

Postby Mister Tee » Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:30 am

OscarGuy wrote: It was rather a small number. His margin of loss was less than 1,000,000 among those states combined (I don't recall the exact numbers).

Actually, WAY less: 10,704 votes in MI, 22, 748 in WI, and 44, 292 in PA -- a total of 77,744 votes spread over three states counted more than Hillary's margin of 2,868,520.

Sabin
Laureate
Posts: 7231
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 12:52 am
Contact:

Re: Life Under Trump

Postby Sabin » Mon Jan 30, 2017 1:23 am

Mister Tee wrote
As someone on Facebook posted "First they came for the Muslims -- and this time we said no, and stopped it".

I like that one. Another was "-- not this time, motherfucker." I'm more in line with a sign that said "Don't blame Trump. He gave us every reason in the world not to vote for him." I gain more satisfaction from Tee's note about the current protest numbers in comparison to those in the 1960s than the protests in general. I participated in Los Angeles. I will do so again and again. So far the only satisfaction I've been able to glean from it is the knowledge that these protests drive him crazy.

I've deactivated my Facebook account. My echo chamber is too like-minded so I basically lose nothing from people parroting the same articles and thoughts back and forth. I've also limited the days where I follow the news or think about President Trump (and I will say his name because he is forever a part of our American story) to five because I believe that thinking about President Trump everyday is unhealthy. Not just emotionally but physically unhealthy. I used to go weeks and months without that man crossing my mind. I fear that will never happen again.

And so, I get my news from my trusted internet sources, I partake in a much smaller echo chamber, which makes me much happier, and I also have this place which has taken on a new meaning for me since the election. I am truly grateful for the level-headed, informed perspectives I receive here. But I'm interested in those who have more varied echo chambers than I do, those with Trump supporters in their lives. How are they reacting to these appointments, to these protests, to the longest political week of my life? I will happily admit to having no idea.
"If you are marching with white nationalists, you are by definition not a very nice person. If Malala Yousafzai had taken part in that rally, you'd have to say 'Okay, I guess Malala sucks now.'" ~ John Oliver

User avatar
Sonic Youth
Laureate
Posts: 7436
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 8:35 pm
Location: USA

Re: Life Under Trump

Postby Sonic Youth » Mon Jan 30, 2017 12:42 am

Mister Tee wrote:I'm going to back up flipp, and say that dismissing these demonstrations as a small group of people is wildly off the mark. I lived through the 60s, and I've never seen resistance on this massive a scale. The marches last Saturday -- in mostly very cold weather -- drew somewhere from 3.5 to 4.5 million, an unprecedented turnout. The spontaneous demonstrations over the past 48 hours have been, in their own way, more impressive: incredible numbers of people mobilizing on what seems a moment's notice. As someone on Facebook posted "First they came for the Muslims -- and this time we said no, and stopped it". I don't see why we need to judge ourselves/find ourselves wanting against some hypothetical larger turnout of Europeans.


We both know how large the demonstrations were, but I see no upside in arguing with Italiano or anyone else. They're not the enemy. T***p (I never say his name), Putin, Wilders, Le Pen etc. are the enemies. If someone legitimately thinks that the protests weren't very large, they're not likely to be convinced otherwise. There are other things to focus on right now.
"What the hell?"
Win Butler

User avatar
OscarGuy
Site Admin
Posts: 12435
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 12:22 am
Location: Springfield, MO
Contact:

Re: Life Under Trump

Postby OscarGuy » Sun Jan 29, 2017 11:45 pm

Many of us, especially in the gay community, have been very well aware of the negative elements in our nation. Those who would demean, degrade, and destroy those of various LGBT stripes simply because their religion told them to. It was disturbing to see and we fought tooth and nail for the better part of four decades against that zealotry. We still saw those forces at work as they worked away in the "red" states and chipped away at our liberties. It was only through the courts that we got the redress of our grievances and eventually gained some measure of equal treatment under the law (some measure because we still have a long way to go, with these bathroom bills and First Amendment Defense bills).

Many of us have seen these things as being possibilities and is one of the reasons why we spent months last year decrying and protesting against the possibilities of a Trump administration. Unfortunately, some felt that misinformation about one candidate outweighed their fear of the other. Ultimately, it's the shitheels in Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin and North Carolina who decided to stay home rather than vote to protect the nation that caused this. It was rather a small number. His margin of loss was less than 1,000,000 among those states combined (I don't recall the exact numbers).

Many of us have seen the dark underbelly of this nation for years and have spoken openly about it. We just had hoped that enough people, the overwhelming majority of Americans, would stand up and stop that very vocal, very evil minority from gaining control. Those are the ones to blame for all of this. Recalcitrance, laziness and disbelief that it could happen, not evil, were the reasons we're in this situation. Let's not confuse the two.

I just hope that we still have freedom in 2 years and can get the public motivated enough to wrest control of congress from Trumple Thinskin and thereby thwart everything he has not yet been able to accomplish and, if the Republican cowards in congress haven't done their duty yet, impeach the bastard for the various crimes against humanity he has perpetrated or will perpetrate.
Wesley Lovell
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - Benjamin Franklin

Mister Tee
Laureate
Posts: 6264
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 2:57 pm
Location: NYC
Contact:

Re: Life Under Trump

Postby Mister Tee » Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:33 pm

ITALIANO wrote:
Mister Tee wrote:I'What we questioned was his belief that these were the true heart of -- the REAL -- America. That's their own self-image, but it's not reality -- not even today.


Ok, still defending America... So Trump was elected by extra-terrestrials.

Try reading my second paragraph. If you're going to ignore facts, we have no basis for discussion.

ITALIANO
Emeritus
Posts: 3913
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 1:58 pm
Location: MILAN
Contact:

Re: Life Under Trump

Postby ITALIANO » Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:24 pm

Mister Tee wrote:I'What we questioned was his belief that these were the true heart of -- the REAL -- America. That's their own self-image, but it's not reality -- not even today.


Ok, still defending America... So Trump was elected by extra-terrestrials.

As for those European countries which "acceded to fascism quickly"... Well, not all THAT quickly, and not all without many trying to oppose to it, often losing their lives, and none without suffering huge damages because of fascism. But at least we learned from that experience - no President here would have the same kind of power that Trump seems to have in the US.

But then I never said that Europe - or even less, Italy - is perfect. Self-criticism is a discipline I've learned to master, trust me. But too often here saying that America isn't flawless was considered like a sacrilege, something unheard of. And your post confirms this. Why doesn't anyone ever say: "we are just idiots"?! In Italy we say this every single day... It helps, believe me.

Mister Tee
Laureate
Posts: 6264
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 2:57 pm
Location: NYC
Contact:

Re: Life Under Trump

Postby Mister Tee » Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:05 pm

I'm going to back up flipp, and say that dismissing these demonstrations as a small group of people is wildly off the mark. I lived through the 60s, and I've never seen resistance on this massive a scale. The marches last Saturday -- in mostly very cold weather -- drew somewhere from 3.5 to 4.5 million, an unprecedented turnout. The spontaneous demonstrations over the past 48 hours have been, in their own way, more impressive: incredible numbers of people mobilizing on what seems a moment's notice. As someone on Facebook posted "First they came for the Muslims -- and this time we said no, and stopped it". I don't see why we need to judge ourselves/find ourselves wanting against some hypothetical larger turnout of Europeans. (Would it be too nasty to point out that Europe contains a bunch of countries that have, in living memory of some, acceded to fascism rather quickly?) My observation is that people I'd never have expected to be part of any resistance have been gung-ho for it -- people I thought were moderate Republicans went to the march; my Facebook page, normally filled with funny videos and assorted trivia, has become about 90% political postings. Something really unexpected has happened here.

I don't think anyone ever questioned Italiano's contention that there were horrible Americans who'd be ripe for someone like Trump. We're all too aware of them: we've been dealing with them for the past 40 years. What we questioned was his belief that these were the true heart of -- the REAL -- America. That's their own self-image, but it's not reality -- not even today. Trump, as we know, got almost 3 million fewer votes than Hillary Clinton in November, and that was after the outrageous intervention of Comey, and the still-not-fully-explored manipulation by Russia (I'm not a conspiracy theorist by any means, but the mathematically acute part of me finds Trump's convenient margins in WI/MI/PA/FL very hard to square with the rest of the voting tallies). The way the Senate is chosen, far fewer people have voted for the 52 GOP Senators than the 48 Dem Senators (I read somewhere that, thanks to the huge populations of NY & CA, the winning Dems had something like 18 million more votes). And the House of Representatives is so gerrymandered that in 2012 Dems got more votes than GOPers but still trailed by over 30 seats (I never heard the final figure this year, but it was close to the same). We are in effect living in something like apartheid, with a minority running all three branches of government. It's the system as it exists, we have to endure it a while...but be aware that it doesn't accurately represent the views of the American public. (As also indicated by Trump's cataclysmically low approval ratings, also unprecedented for a man 9 days into his presidency.)

I'm not underestimating what danger we're in right now. Trump is a lunatic, and his party has the delusion they can control him to the extent of getting long-desired policies pushed through without external damage -- much the same delusion German conservatives had about someone we won't name. It's a horrifying moment in history, one that most people I know can't stop thinking/talking about. But there is a resistance, it's large and seemingly highly motivated. So we'll just have to see how successful it can be. It is worth noting that, last summer, some Republicans were honest enough to admit that the only thing potentially worse for the party than Trump losing big was him winning. That scenario could be playing out.

ITALIANO
Emeritus
Posts: 3913
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 1:58 pm
Location: MILAN
Contact:

Re: Life Under Trump

Postby ITALIANO » Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:37 pm

Big Magilla wrote:I only knew three people who were virulent anti-Hillary supporters of Trump during the election.


It's interesting, because even in Italy, when Berlusconi was voted by so many, I really knew only two or three people who admitted they voted for him. He simply was voted by a part of my country which I didn't have much contact with - but which existed nonetheless.

ITALIANO
Emeritus
Posts: 3913
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 1:58 pm
Location: MILAN
Contact:

Re: Life Under Trump

Postby ITALIANO » Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:32 pm

Sonic Youth wrote:
As I said a few months ago, we deserve whatever you tell us now. It's our job to make up for it. But you do have a way with words, you must admit. Sometimes it's your method rather than your meaning.

"Homophobic insult". I am not aware of any homophobic insult I would have given you, and if I said anything that either was one or interpreted as one, then I deeply, sincerely apologize. The only thing I can think of is that we sometimes descended into real harsh "playground taunts" and those can be brutal and, for lack of a better word, "masculine" competitions. And i can see how they can come across as homophobic, whether they're meant to or not. Whatever it was I said, I promise that wasn't my intention.


Oh, it was long ago anyway, no problem... Plus, I'm nor sure that I lost the masculine competitions... :D I mean I'm Italian after all :wink:

As for my way with words, don't forget that English isn't my first language. That often leads to a lack of sublety.

Big Magilla
Site Admin
Posts: 15401
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 3:22 pm
Location: Jersey Shore

Re: Life Under Trump

Postby Big Magilla » Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:24 pm

I have family members in rural Pennsylvania, upstate New York and Texas who were out there protesting last week, too. I'm not aware of any out there right now, but some of them are awfully quiet on Facebook right now. One of my young nephews who marched last week isn't so quiet. He just posted this on Facebook in response to Kellyanne Conway's latest smug appearance on TV:

"Can we strap Kellyanne "Sewer Rat" Conway to a rocket so that we'll never see or hear of her again. I mean seriously Kellyane, SHUT THE FUCK UP and feel free to GO FUCK YOURSELF!!"

In the meantime I only knew three people who were virulent anti-Hillary supporters of Trump during the election. One gave himself a heart attack and died a week before Election Day. The other two mostly post about food now, but occasionally come up with some nonsense about Hillary. They are suddenly very quiet on Trump.

User avatar
Sonic Youth
Laureate
Posts: 7436
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 8:35 pm
Location: USA

Re: Life Under Trump

Postby Sonic Youth » Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:23 pm

ITALIANO wrote:
Sonic Youth wrote: Encourage us! We need all the help we can get.


I do encorauge you and your family, Sonic Youth - of course I do. But - I mean, even you - and despite the fact that as far as I remember you are married to a non-American... Every time I used to even vaguely say that America wasn't so perfect and there was a sordid dark side about it... you were always acting as if it was a personal offence (even resorting to homophobic insults - I couldnt care at all of course). And YOU should have been the first to be personally worried... But it was hopeless.


As I said a few months ago, we deserve whatever you tell us now. It's our job to make up for it. But you do have a way with words, you must admit. Sometimes it's your method rather than your meaning.

"Homophobic insult". I am not aware of any homophobic insult I would have given you, and if I said anything that either was one or interpreted as one, then I deeply, sincerely apologize. The only thing I can think of is that we sometimes descended into real harsh "playground taunts" and those can be brutal and, for lack of a better word, "masculine" competitions. And i can see how they can come across as homophobic, whether they're meant to or not. Whatever it was I said, I promise that wasn't my intention.
"What the hell?"

Win Butler

ITALIANO
Emeritus
Posts: 3913
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 1:58 pm
Location: MILAN
Contact:

Re: Life Under Trump

Postby ITALIANO » Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:17 pm

Sonic Youth wrote:
ITALIANO wrote: But in western Europe the amount of idiocy, narrow-mindness, arrogance and plain craziness that Trump is showing DAYS after he's been officially appointed as President would be today unthinkable, honestly.


It's unthinkable over HERE. We're astonished over here. Everything he is doing is by executive order, without any consultation among congress, and he doesn't even have a cabinet in place yet. Everything he is doing, he is doing very much on his own (and a few advisers.) There are no immediate safeguards against this, because no president has behaved like this one week into his presidency. But powerful actions produce powerful reactions. This inexperienced, neurotic son-of-a-bitch is trying to do too much too soon - he has no clue about process - and it will cost him. If he wanted to be dictator, then he should have done it with deliberation, but he's too stupid to even do that.


The impression that we are getting now, frankly, is that in America a President can do whatever he or she wants, without any control from other institutions. I hope it's not true - but if it is it's certainly due to the fact that the US never experienced (unlike, of course, Europe) a dictatorship, so never thought of having to prevent it. But such dangers are always possible - everywhere, even in the most "democratic" of places (but then was America ever really so democratic - deep inside?). You say that there are safeguards - I can only hope that this is true.

User avatar
Sonic Youth
Laureate
Posts: 7436
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 8:35 pm
Location: USA

Re: Life Under Trump

Postby Sonic Youth » Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:12 pm

ITALIANO wrote: But in western Europe the amount of idiocy, narrow-mindness, arrogance and plain craziness that Trump is showing DAYS after he's been officially appointed as President would be today unthinkable, honestly.


It's unthinkable over HERE. We're astonished over here. Everything he is doing is by executive order, without any consultation among congress, and he doesn't even have a cabinet in place yet. Everything he is doing, he is doing very much on his own (and a few advisers.) There are no immediate safeguards against this, because no president has behaved like this one week into his presidency. But powerful actions produce powerful reactions. This inexperienced, neurotic son-of-a-bitch is trying to do too much too soon - he has no clue about process - and it will cost him. If he wanted to be dictator, then he should have done it with deliberation, but he's too stupid to even do that.
"What the hell?"

Win Butler

ITALIANO
Emeritus
Posts: 3913
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 1:58 pm
Location: MILAN
Contact:

Re: Life Under Trump

Postby ITALIANO » Sun Jan 29, 2017 5:10 pm

Big Magilla wrote:
ITALIANO wrote: Some of those who voted for him thinking he didn't mean all the crazy things he said are waking up to a new reality.


Yes.... but it's a bit late now unfortunately.

Also - you live there so you know better than I do - but I think that there IS a big portion of Americans (not those living in New York or in San Francisco of course, but in other areas, and America is big, and not only made of big cities) which is so... DEEPY Trump-ian - Trump-ian at heart. And which was so even before Trump ever thought of becoming President.


Return to “Current Events”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest