Web of Sex Scandals

ITALIANO
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby ITALIANO » Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:55 pm

OscarGuy wrote:We all knew when this started that there would, unfortunately, be opportunists who used the movement as a score-settling mechanism


Well... Actually when I tried to say that I was accused of being pro-rape :D (You can read those posts and see, they aren't even too old.)

But of course it's not just - or always - opportunism. Sabin's girlfriend, I am sure, isn't an opportunist. And like her, many others. It's a much deeper problem, but ok, if you want to see it white-and-black, like in American movies, I give up :)

By the way... Sabin - leave her :wink:

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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby OscarGuy » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:23 am

We all knew when this started that there would, unfortunately, be opportunists who used the movement as a score-settling mechanism or a fame-getting tool, but we cannot allow these isolated incidents, which are VERY QUICKLY rooted out and exposed and appropriately ridiculed, to stop the momentum of the overall movement.

I find the difference in responses interesting between folks like Ansari and those who are legitimately scummy like Spacey, Hoffman, Douglas, TJ Miller, and Franco. The latter set deny, obfuscate, or otherwise deflect while Ansari acknowledged the problem and handled the whole situation with class even though he knew that the situation had been grossly misrepresented.
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby flipp525 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 11:02 am

Sabin wrote:There's one part of the story that keeps jumping out at me. It's where she says he ordered white wine. She prefers red, but he ordered white. Which makes it seem like she had no control over the course of the evening at all...

Then order your own wine.

It wasn’t white wine that he had ordered. He had an open bottle waiting for both of them to enjoy at his place before they went out to dinner.

That detail was a huge red flag for me (a red flag pointing toward a very entitled millennial woman).
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby ITALIANO » Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:49 am

Please read what I wrote on this board about this subject. Yes, exactly those posts which led to Oscar Guy accusing me of being a rapist or a potential rapist and implying that I should be banned, to Sonic Youth, Uri and others attacking me in a more subtle but I'd say even nastier way, and most here - except a few who were suppotive either publicly or privately - being cowardly silent. My God, some even wrote about their (certainly terrible) experences on this subject as if I had personally done those to them! At the same time, that confirmed my fears: the witch-hunt had started, as I knew it would.

I had expressed very balanced, very obvious truths. Truths which I knew about because I have a life - I do live, and I know how varied and potentially ambiguous this subject can be, and that while certain acts are OBVIOUSLY wrong, and should be toughly punished (preferably by justice rather than on the web), there is also a grey area which is extremely dangerous and subtle, and can be used either intentionally or even unintentionally in the worst possible way. For the simple reason that while I love sex (unlike, I feel, most of my accusers here I have a very healthy sexual life), I also know how, let's say, complicated it can be. Fascinatingly complicated, I'd add - but still so complex that each case is different, and general theories unfortunately (oh, how simple they are, and how easy it would be if thet could be always applied!) can't exist.

The hysteria here (more American and Israeli than European, I must say) meant that I just had to wait, and soon facts would have confimed my fears. And this is, of course, what's happening now. Some were annoyed when I didn't feel moved by those stars dressed in black at the Golden Globes. I found that hypocritical, and I still feel that way. Some compared such movements to the civil-rights protests of the 60s. I smiled - a sad smile - because I knew that it wasn't the same thing. Definitely not.

Most importantly - there is (I must choose words carefully because Oscar Guy otherwise will have a heart attack) a physical aspect in sex. (This is why I'm not sure that those who attacked me have a healthy sexual life). A contact of bodies which can be sometimes playful, sometimes rough, sometimes even aggressive, and sometimes downright clumsy (one can make mistakes, and maybe for example try to kiss someone who doesn't really want that. Embarassing, of course - but is that sexual harassment)? If one - I repeat: intentionally or not - starts considering these and other thousands different sexual aspects as rape, not only the result is a damage to innocent people, but also a damage to a cause which is, I repeat, right and justified - a damage to the REAL victims of rape and sexual harassment.

And even our own reaction to sexual harassment especially is so... subjective. Oh, before someone says it: sexual harassment is always WRONG if it is REAL - even more wrong if done to those who are in a lower position or who are simply weaker (children, employees, women etc). But even the victims' reaction can be different. When I was much younger - and maybe more attractive than I am now, but definitely more naive - I, like everyone, was groped by strangers in crowded buses, and once assaulted by a married man in his car. Was it annoying? Yes. Was it a tragic shock which marked me for life and still inflences my view of sex? Of course not. I will always defend those who can be hurt by experiences like these - but I personally can't play the role of the tearful victim, I wouldn't be honest, because frankly I considered those as not pleasant but in a way important lessons of life. And life isn't always smooth and easy.

Oh, now the sexophobes will react again. But can I be honest again? In a case of sexual harassment, if I were part of a jury, I feel I'd me more qualified than those who keep attacking me here. Mora balanced, certainly.

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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby Sabin » Wed Jan 17, 2018 1:56 am

There's one part of the story that keeps jumping out at me. It's where she says he ordered white wine. She prefers red, but he ordered white. Which makes it seem like she had no control over the course of the evening at all...

Then order your own wine.
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby flipp525 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:21 pm

The girl herself identified the encounter as a sexual assault in the original “reporting” (if you can even call it that). For the record, I don’t think this qualifies as an assault, but I’m not pulling the term out of my ass.

I think the whole roll-out of this story has been handled really poorly. And it mostly sounds to me like a girl who wanted to bag a relationship with a famous person (one whom she was not even attracted to) and then became incensed when she realized that he really just wanted to take her home and fuck her.

She tweeted about the whole thing back in October and it didn’t get the traction she wanted so she came out with it again at the height of awards season #MeToo coverage.
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby Mister Tee » Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:15 pm

Anyone, man or woman, who hasn't at some point woke up the day after having sex with someone and regretted it is a) a virgin or b) a liar.

The Aziz Ansari thing is a bad date; bad sex. It happens. It's not assault, and, as many are saying here, it demeans this important movement and its focus on actual assault by conflating every sexual mis-step with Harvey Weinstein. Sex is a complicated thing (for both men and women, though you'd never know that, these days); people misread, misinterpret, or simply have different expectations. If we make that a crime, we're halfway back to the Victorian era. (And there's a real generational thing here. One over-50 lady I've read, reading that article and hearing that the first thing Ansari did was cunnilingus, noted that 30 years ago, she'd have considered that an impossible dream date.)

I get a strong whiff of Madame Defarge from things I'm reading these days. It makes me glad my most sexually adventurous years are past; it feels like a political mine-field.

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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby Sabin » Tue Jan 16, 2018 3:01 pm

I've read other hot takes that omit the phrase assault and instead use the word misconduct.

Also, I recommend 'The Atlantic' piece "Aziz Ansari and the Paradox of No." It draws attention to the miscommunication between the two of them, how he could text her the next day saying he enjoyed their evening and she could walk away feeling assaulted.
"If you are marching with white nationalists, you are by definition not a very nice person. If Malala Yousafzai had taken part in that rally, you'd have to say 'Okay, I guess Malala sucks now.'" ~ John Oliver

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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby flipp525 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:55 pm

But Aziz is being accused of sexual assault. In the original Babe.net article (WTF is that website?) “Grace” (who has now been identified as a hipster millennial living in Brooklyn named Abby Nierman) states that eventually through “processing” the episode and talking with friends, that what she believes she experienced was a sexual assault.
"The mantle of spinsterhood was definitely in her shoulders. She was twenty five and looked it."



-Gone With the Wind by Margaret Mitchell

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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby Sabin » Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:41 pm

Look, obviously my heart goes out to anyone who's made to feel cheap, but it muddies the message from raising awareness of sexual assault to...what? Guys shouldn't try to have sex on a date? Despite the backlash, several reputable news sources are saying this story matters and we need to talk about it, and I see their point. The best case I can make for it is it continues an important dialogue about how all women have been made to feel cheap by men, that there is a fundamental grossness in our society that we need to take a look at. Unfortunately, that it requires such a huge leap from all involved to understand that Aziz isn't being accused of sexual assault but rather privilege, and the writing in the piece absolutely does that message no favors.

On a personal note, I'm dealing with something with my girlfriend right now in the wake of #MeToo. Forgive me if I've posted about this before. She's a very talented poet and writer of creative non-fiction. She has an experience from her past that through therapy she has decided is sexual assault and she's thinking about writing about it and sharing it online.

The problem is I absolutely don't think it is sexual assault. Years ago, she went to a guy's birthday party. She had a crush on him for a while. She hung around the party and flirted with him. At the end of the night, they ended up on his couch making out, he went up her shirt, all of which was fine...until he tried to finger her. He didn't ask. His finger entered her. She said no. And he stopped.

That's it.

She made jokes about it but through therapy she has decided that consent, consent, consent. She didn't agree to be penetrated and then it happened. When she told me this, I answered in probably the worst way I could have. I didn't say all of this at once but my response summed up the following points: "I don't think that's sexual assault. I think that might be something else. I mean, I've done that."

Again, worst thing I could've probably said. Lots of crying. Lots of holding. I had incredibly mixed feelings about what I was being told by her. We moved on. I didn't bring it up. Lately, she's been talking about writing about it but she's a little nervous because she's not sure if her incident deserves to be lumped in with instances of severe assault. I've held off on commenting or leading her one way or another. I support the right of any woman to speak out on their assaults because to do otherwise denies agency. But I really don't want her to do this.
"If you are marching with white nationalists, you are by definition not a very nice person. If Malala Yousafzai had taken part in that rally, you'd have to say 'Okay, I guess Malala sucks now.'" ~ John Oliver

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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby flipp525 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:12 pm

Agreed, dws. It’s a #MeToo by way of “The Crucible.”
"The mantle of spinsterhood was definitely in her shoulders. She was twenty five and looked it."



-Gone With the Wind by Margaret Mitchell

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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby dws1982 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:37 am

The Aziz Asnari story is very, very irresponsible journalism.

This type of thing is how an entire social movement--an important one that is starting several useful and needed conversations--gets derailed.

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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby Big Magilla » Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:58 am

These ass-kissing Trump supporters are disgusting, from the Republicans in the U.S. Congress to the Fox News grotesques to this guy.

Sweet revenge would be for Meryl and Rose McGowan to co-present something at the Globes in flaming red gowns.
“‎Life is a shipwreck, but we must not forget to sing in the lifeboats.” - Voltaire

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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby Precious Doll » Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:57 am

This article could go under a number of discussion threads:

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/d ... abo-artist
"I have no interest in all of that. I find that all tabloid stupidity" Woody Allen, The Guardian, 2014, in response to his adopted daughter's allegations.

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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby ITALIANO » Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:26 am

Sonic Youth wrote:
No, it's not a fact that "many" do. It's a conclusion, and it's your impression. Back it up with data if you want it to be accepted as fact.




Oh, there ARE data. The 2016 Uniform Crime Report (UCR), which measures rapes that are known to police, estimated that there were 90,185 rapes reported to law enforcement in 2015. And we are only talking about rape. It's true that the number of cases which aren't reported may be rather higher, but my point is that today it IS possible to do what many women already do. Not easy - especially not psychologically easy I guess - but, thank God, possible. Oh, and the outcome is often positive (according to the FBI in 1012 70930 men were convicted for sex crimes).

By repeating the mantra that women can't do anything after being raped or molested, one simply reinforces a cliche which not only is not true, but also may lead to more women thinking that reporting sex offenders to the police wouldn't lead to anything.

And I guess there's nothing wrong with wishing, like I did, that more women would act. Yes, it would prevent male feminists from shedding what are sometimes crocodile tears or from exorcisining their own private demons and secret, guilty desires - but I still wish it could happen more often.

I don't know if you realize how absurd, but also how terrible, it is that someone who simply says this, in America can be accused of being a rapist, or a paedophile, or at least one who is in favor of rape. Rather than attacking me, you should have attacked Oscar Guy. The fact that you didn't says alot about you and, let me add it, about your integrity as a human being. I am not like that, Sonic Youth.


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