Web of Sex Scandals

Sabin
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby Sabin » Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:41 pm

Look, obviously my heart goes out to anyone who's made to feel cheap, but it muddies the message from raising awareness of sexual assault to...what? Guys shouldn't try to have sex on a date? Despite the backlash, several reputable news sources are saying this story matters and we need to talk about it, and I see their point. The best case I can make for it is it continues an important dialogue about how all women have been made to feel cheap by men, that there is a fundamental grossness in our society that we need to take a look at. Unfortunately, that it requires such a huge leap from all involved to understand that Aziz isn't being accused of sexual assault but rather privilege, and the writing in the piece absolutely does that message no favors.

On a personal note, I'm dealing with something with my girlfriend right now in the wake of #MeToo. Forgive me if I've posted about this before. She's a very talented poet and writer of creative non-fiction. She has an experience from her past that through therapy she has decided is sexual assault and she's thinking about writing about it and sharing it online.

The problem is I absolutely don't think it is sexual assault. Years ago, she went to a guy's birthday party. She had a crush on him for a while. She hung around the party and flirted with him. At the end of the night, they ended up on his couch making out, he went up her shirt, all of which was fine...until he tried to finger her. He didn't ask. His finger entered her. She said no. And he stopped.

That's it.

She made jokes about it but through therapy she has decided that consent, consent, consent. She didn't agree to be penetrated and then it happened. When she told me this, I answered in probably the worst way I could have. I didn't say all of this at once but my response summed up the following points: "I don't think that's sexual assault. I think that might be something else. I mean, I've done that."

Again, worst thing I could've probably said. Lots of crying. Lots of holding. I had incredibly mixed feelings about what I was being told by her. We moved on. I didn't bring it up. Lately, she's been talking about writing about it but she's a little nervous because she's not sure if her incident deserves to be lumped in with instances of severe assault. I've held off on commenting or leading her one way or another. I support the right of any woman to speak out on their assaults because to do otherwise denies agency. But I really don't want her to do this.
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby flipp525 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 2:12 pm

Agreed, dws. It’s a #MeToo by way of “The Crucible.”
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby dws1982 » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:37 am

The Aziz Asnari story is very, very irresponsible journalism.

This type of thing is how an entire social movement--an important one that is starting several useful and needed conversations--gets derailed.

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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby Big Magilla » Thu Dec 21, 2017 2:58 am

These ass-kissing Trump supporters are disgusting, from the Republicans in the U.S. Congress to the Fox News grotesques to this guy.

Sweet revenge would be for Meryl and Rose McGowan to co-present something at the Globes in flaming red gowns.
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby Precious Doll » Thu Dec 21, 2017 1:57 am

This article could go under a number of discussion threads:

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/d ... abo-artist
"I have no interest in all of that. I find that all tabloid stupidity" Woody Allen, The Guardian, 2014, in response to his adopted daughter's allegations.

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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby ITALIANO » Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:26 am

Sonic Youth wrote:
No, it's not a fact that "many" do. It's a conclusion, and it's your impression. Back it up with data if you want it to be accepted as fact.




Oh, there ARE data. The 2016 Uniform Crime Report (UCR), which measures rapes that are known to police, estimated that there were 90,185 rapes reported to law enforcement in 2015. And we are only talking about rape. It's true that the number of cases which aren't reported may be rather higher, but my point is that today it IS possible to do what many women already do. Not easy - especially not psychologically easy I guess - but, thank God, possible. Oh, and the outcome is often positive (according to the FBI in 1012 70930 men were convicted for sex crimes).

By repeating the mantra that women can't do anything after being raped or molested, one simply reinforces a cliche which not only is not true, but also may lead to more women thinking that reporting sex offenders to the police wouldn't lead to anything.

And I guess there's nothing wrong with wishing, like I did, that more women would act. Yes, it would prevent male feminists from shedding what are sometimes crocodile tears or from exorcisining their own private demons and secret, guilty desires - but I still wish it could happen more often.

I don't know if you realize how absurd, but also how terrible, it is that someone who simply says this, in America can be accused of being a rapist, or a paedophile, or at least one who is in favor of rape. Rather than attacking me, you should have attacked Oscar Guy. The fact that you didn't says alot about you and, let me add it, about your integrity as a human being. I am not like that, Sonic Youth.

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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby Sonic Youth » Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:29 am

Sonic, we’re not in each other’s mutual admiration societies? That comment threw me a little. Do we have beef with each other? I surely don’t. I’m sorry if you do and would apologize for anything that might’ve led you there. I have nothing against you and never have. Not sure where that came from.


I don't know, maybe I misread the tenor of the conversation between us? If that's what happened, then I apologize and I hope we can move forward from here. It wasn't my intention to make a bad situation even more difficult, if that's what I did.
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby Reza » Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:22 pm

flipp525 wrote:I was talking about when you called Samantha Geimer a slut, not myself. But how weird that you specifically remember calling me one too. I only recall you calling me a faggot. Which I just chalked up to your cultural insensitivity and general homophobia (which you have constantly shown here through the years). Why don’t you apologize for calling me a faggot?

Also, your attempt below to imply that my posts are not valued here and need to be something one skips over and ignored is, I believe, not something universally shared here. But feel free to. It really doesn’t bother me what you think.

Sonic, we’re not in each other’s mutual admiration societies? That comment threw me a little. Do we have beef with each other? I surely don’t. I’m sorry if you do and would apologize for anything that might’ve led you there. I have nothing against you and never have. Not sure where that came from.

I didn’t bring up anything about an attack in this thread, Reza. I would appreciate any reference to that to be deleted from this thread or this entire thread made private. I’m not going to be re-victimized by “Reza” of all people. Not publicly on this board at least.


Of course I want to apologise although I may have even done so then too. If not, please accept my sincere apologies for saying anything derogatory or unseemly to you. I realise it was totally wrong and I had no right to spout off saying those words just to get a reaction out of you or to hurt you during whatever silly argument at the time. Nobody has any right to do that. I'm truly sorry for hurting you with any insensitive words.

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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby Sonic Youth » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:45 pm

ITALIANO wrote:I don't remember it, and I don't know if it's true (knowing you I'd be surprised actually), but if it is, well, Reza - calling anyone a slut or a faggot is obviously unacceptable and, unless you already did, you should apologize. Unlike Sonic Youth, you CAN do that, I am sure. While I hate hypocrisy as much as you do, insults, and especially insults of that kind, aren't an alternative that I like.


And... you (and anyone who's not bored to death by this) can look up Sun Jan 29, 2017 (times will vary) in the "Everything is Great and Amazing" thread and see yet another one of the many things you mis-remembered. It's of so little importance, but I do like it when Alternative History doesn't get the last word.

But isn't it a fact Sonic Touth, that many women, thank God, DO? Many, ok?


No, it's not a fact that "many" do. It's a conclusion, and it's your impression. Back it up with data if you want it to be accepted as fact.

And why, like Uri, are you oily trying to imply that I am in some way connected with that, or that I agree with him? No, my dear Sonic Youth, this won't work. Now tell me exactly when and where this happened. I am waiting. Because either you don't understand anything, or YOU are in bad faith. And I don't like that.


Okay, sorry you feel that's what happened.
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby ITALIANO » Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:34 pm

OscarGuy wrote:The last grasp of any dominant society is to respond with reactionary invective. To claim that any further repudiation will dismantle it. We've seen that time and again with the Civil Rights Movement, the Gay Rights Movement, Women's Suffrage, etc. Those who are most privileged or have been sequestered by a privileged life believe that society will crumble if improvements and betterments are made. The disintegrating patriarchy fears its own collapse and retaliates in both words and deeds to prevent that decay from happening. Sometimes, it's even good people who reject the progress.

The United States is grappling with multiple different rights movements that are finally beginning to break towards the protection of the minorities, and certain segments of the majority are fighting tooth and nail to preserve themselves. Whether it's the Blue Lives Matter movement, the Bathroom Bill movement, the Cake Baking Freedom movement, or the Not All Men movement, the most vocal portion of the majority are lashing out at the sea change that's taking place. They are afraid that their dominance will end. They are loud. They are vocal. They are wrong. They don't understand why we say their privilege is showing. Most of all, however, they are afraid and they don't think they can survive being forced to be civil, fair, open, or accessible.

Whether one person taking up a mantra is a sign of that person's fear or a genuine belief that their lives are under assault, they have allowed themselves to be swayed by a response that is hurtful, damaging, condescending, and regressive. The individual may not realize this and however we try to point it out to them, they will reject that they are at all part of the degrading institution that's under attack, but they defend it. I don't think it's necessarily out of malice (though, there are many who are authentically malicious and obvious about their hate), but it is undoubtedly out of privilege. It's either the irrational fear of being treated the way the minority has been treated or it's an unrealized bias coming to the surface. Whatever real or imagined reason for the reaction, it is still wrong.

They may not see it now. They may not see it a year from now. They may never see it, but those who embrace the movement and accept that it will be a bumpy ride, may be able to look back two decades from now and see how wrong they were and how much actual progress has been made in the intervening years and thus recognize that others gaining rights and protections does not mean that they lose anything, but that our society gains something palpable. A populace that's free to live and thrive and experience all that the world has to offer without fear of being considered or treated as a lesser being.



All very true and very noble. Really. It's difficult to disagree. I honestly don't know what it has to do with this thread, but ok, we all agree.

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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby ITALIANO » Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:30 pm

flipp525 wrote:I was talking about when you called Samantha Geimer a slut, not myself. But how weird that you specifically remember calling me one too. I only recall you calling me a faggot. Which I just chalked up to your cultural insensitivity and general homophobia (which you have constantly shown here through the years). Why don’t you apologize for calling me a faggot?

Also, your attempt below to imply that my posts are not valued here and need to be something one skips over and ignored is, I believe, not something universally shared here. But feel free to. It really doesn’t bother me what you think.

Sonic, we’re not in each other’s mutual admiration societies? That comment threw me a little. Do we have beef with each other? I surely don’t. I’m sorry if you do and would apologize for anything that might’ve led you there. I have nothing against you and never have. Not sure where that came from.

I didn’t bring up anything about an attack in this thread, Reza. I would appreciate any reference to that to be deleted from this thread or this entire thread made private. I’m not going to be re-victimized by “Reza” of all people. Not publicly on this board at least.


I don't remember it, and I don't know if it's true (knowing you I'd be surprised actually), but if it is, well, Reza - calling anyone a slut or a faggot is obviously unacceptable and, unless you already did, you should apologize. Unlike Sonic Youth, you CAN do that, I am sure. While I hate hypocrisy as much as you do, insults, and especially insults of that kind, aren't an alternative that I like.

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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby flipp525 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:01 am

Reza wrote:
ITALIANO wrote:
Sonic Youth wrote:
What did you want me to answer, anyway? Wouldn't it have been better if Weinstein's victims came forward at the time rather than waited years later? Was that it? Putting aside that some DID come forward (and it didn't do them any good), why don't you Google it instead of asking me? Assuming you weren't asking in bad faith, which I doubt, you'll find lots of well-researched, readily available articles as to why women don't come forward. If that's not good enough, talk to a rape crisis counselor.


That wasn't my only point, of course. And I know perfectly well that SOME women even today don't have the strength to come forward right after a rape, and I understand that, in a way. But isn't it a fact Sonic Touth, that many women, thank God, DO? Many, ok? So stop with your absurd fairy-taleish theories. It IS possible and i only said that it would have been better if they had done that, rather than keeping to see him, work with him, in sone cases being intimate with him, for years, or if some who knew HAD TALKED before. It IS possible and it happens. It happens even with the mafia in Sicily, Sonic Youth, and they can even KILL, ok? Sorry for your favorite movie stars, but even ordinary women do that. Oh mamma mia... You really repeat your two or thee pre-recorded notions endlessly.


flipp said I had once upon a time called someone who had been raped a slut.

I distinctly recall calling flipp a slut many years ago but I swear I had no idea he had been attacked. I apologised below. I actually didn't know of any trauma he had gone through.

I was talking about when you called Samantha Geimer a slut, not myself. But how weird that you specifically remember calling me one too. I only recall you calling me a faggot. Which I just chalked up to your cultural insensitivity and general homophobia (which you have constantly shown here through the years). Why don’t you apologize for calling me a faggot?

Also, your attempt below to imply that my posts are not valued here and need to be something one skips over and ignored is, I believe, not something universally shared here. But feel free to. It really doesn’t bother me what you think.

Sonic, we’re not in each other’s mutual admiration societies? That comment threw me a little. Do we have beef with each other? I surely don’t. I’m sorry if you do and would apologize for anything that might’ve led you there. I have nothing against you and never have. Not sure where that came from.

I didn’t bring up anything about an attack in this thread, Reza. I would appreciate any reference to that to be deleted from this thread or this entire thread made private. I’m not going to be re-victimized by “Reza” of all people. Not publicly on this board at least.
"The mantle of spinsterhood was definitely in her shoulders. She was twenty five and looked it."



-Gone With the Wind by Margaret Mitchell

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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby OscarGuy » Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:13 am

The last grasp of any dominant society is to respond with reactionary invective. To claim that any further repudiation will dismantle it. We've seen that time and again with the Civil Rights Movement, the Gay Rights Movement, Women's Suffrage, etc. Those who are most privileged or have been sequestered by a privileged life believe that society will crumble if improvements and betterments are made. The disintegrating patriarchy fears its own collapse and retaliates in both words and deeds to prevent that decay from happening. Sometimes, it's even good people who reject the progress.

The United States is grappling with multiple different rights movements that are finally beginning to break towards the protection of the minorities, and certain segments of the majority are fighting tooth and nail to preserve themselves. Whether it's the Blue Lives Matter movement, the Bathroom Bill movement, the Cake Baking Freedom movement, or the Not All Men movement, the most vocal portion of the majority are lashing out at the sea change that's taking place. They are afraid that their dominance will end. They are loud. They are vocal. They are wrong. They don't understand why we say their privilege is showing. Most of all, however, they are afraid and they don't think they can survive being forced to be civil, fair, open, or accessible.

Whether one person taking up a mantra is a sign of that person's fear or a genuine belief that their lives are under assault, they have allowed themselves to be swayed by a response that is hurtful, damaging, condescending, and regressive. The individual may not realize this and however we try to point it out to them, they will reject that they are at all part of the degrading institution that's under attack, but they defend it. I don't think it's necessarily out of malice (though, there are many who are authentically malicious and obvious about their hate), but it is undoubtedly out of privilege. It's either the irrational fear of being treated the way the minority has been treated or it's an unrealized bias coming to the surface. Whatever real or imagined reason for the reaction, it is still wrong.

They may not see it now. They may not see it a year from now. They may never see it, but those who embrace the movement and accept that it will be a bumpy ride, may be able to look back two decades from now and see how wrong they were and how much actual progress has been made in the intervening years and thus recognize that others gaining rights and protections does not mean that they lose anything, but that our society gains something palpable. A populace that's free to live and thrive and experience all that the world has to offer without fear of being considered or treated as a lesser being.
Wesley Lovell
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - Benjamin Franklin

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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby Uri » Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:02 am

Btw, when you type "add insult to injury" on Google, the second suggested option is "add insult to injury meaning in urdu".

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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby Uri » Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:57 am

Reza, are you aware that every time you bring up that derogatory term (and you used it twice in your last, very short post) you unnecessarily add insult to injury?


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