Web of Sex Scandals

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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby Greg » Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:10 pm

First Female Politician Brought Down By Harassment Allegation:

https://www.usnews.com/news/the-run/art ... allegation
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby ITALIANO » Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:41 pm

Mister Tee wrote:This is a long piece, and I far from agree with parts of it. But it's a very a thoughtful piece, written by a woman, and it expresses ideas that not a few people have worried about in conversations with me, but which seem to be being hushed in the wide media coverage.

https://www.the-american-interest.com/2 ... lock-hunt/



Very good piece! Thanks for the link - it shows that in the US it IS still possible to express sensible opinoons on this subject. Sadly, I'm afraid that an American MAN would never dare to do so, but I guess that today it takes courage even for a woman. It's true, one may not agree with everything she writes, but let's face it - only the sexophobes (there are many though, at laast on that side of the ocean) couldn't agree with the main points in the piece.

I'm not sure that those who accused me of being a rapist will say the same about her now - she is, after all, American. But i can imagine their reaction... :)

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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby Mister Tee » Wed Dec 13, 2017 3:18 pm

This is a long piece, and I far from agree with parts of it. But it's a very a thoughtful piece, written by a woman, and it expresses ideas that not a few people have worried about in conversations with me, but which seem to be being hushed in the wide media coverage.

https://www.the-american-interest.com/2 ... lock-hunt/

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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby ITALIANO » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:58 am

Sonic Youth wrote:
No, I didn't think so. Actually, I was pointing out the similarities between nascent movements.



But these "nascent movements" can't be compared - don't you understand? In those cases it was ethnic or sexual minorities claiming for equal rights, changes of laws, etc. In this case it's impossible to generalize, as each case is different and when even an old high-school-time photo can be used and looked at with suspicon, we are in a completely different territory. This is what I'm trying to say since I've started writing about this subject here.

As for me being pro-rape, you lately wrote that you had changed your mind and that you agree with my accusers (not in this thread). Even just saying "I am sorry, ITALIANO" would have been more honorable than always avoiding my points. But ok, never mind.

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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby Sonic Youth » Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:34 pm

ITALIANO wrote:
I don't know how anyone could compare civil rights... with individual cases


Did I really say that? Hmmm....

Yes, there's going to be false accusations, mistaken accusations, and exaggerated accusations. All of this, unfortunately, also happened with every civil rights movement in history. It shouldn't happen. But it does. Historically, it's one of the inevitable consequences whenever there's a liberation movement going on. There will always be victims of an injustice as the oppressed or mistreated group in question assert themselves. We're fooling ourselves if we're expecting a nice, clean, victim-less paradigm shift. There's no such thing. That doesn't mean it's lost legitimacy.


No, I didn't think so. Actually, I was pointing out the similarities between nascent movements.

ITALIANO wrote:Interestingly, all this from someone who - in another thread - joined others in accusing me of being pro-rape :D

Let the record show that on Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:24 pm, I wrote:

I don't want to be in the middle of this fight, but I should say that whatever my disagreements with Italiano here, I don't agree at all with accusations that Italiano is pro-rape or an apologist for rapists (which was the original statement). That was uncalled for.


ITALIANO wrote:See how everything has a logic?

Not when the premise is false.

ITALIANO wrote:I think this is very interesting, really. And I'm glad to see others here being more balanced in their examination of such a complex, subtle, and sometimes contradictory issue. Each case must be judged individually

No, we were evaluating the Democratic party's handling of the situation, and the bind they were in.

ITALIANO wrote:I swear that I don't have anything against this Sonic Youth. I even chosed to forget - and forgive - his homophobic remarks from years ago.


I allowed the possibility of this because I may have said something when you and I were engaging in tough-guy playground taunts, which tend to be "heteronormative". (That's in quotes for your benefit just in case you consider it to be one of the politically correct words you can't stand.) But you gave no specifics, so I'm left in the dark about this. As I said before, I would hate for it to be true.

But judging from the untruths, misunderstandings and inaccuracies of all the other claims you made above, chances are pretty fair that this is another inaccuracy, misunderstanding or untruth.

These point by point corrections are probably as boring to read as they are to write, so this will be the last one. Feel free to willingly or unwillingly misconstrue anything else I say.
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby ITALIANO » Sun Dec 10, 2017 5:36 am

Sonic Youth wrote:
Yes, there's going to be false accusations, mistaken accusations, and exaggerated accusations. All of this, unfortunately, also happened with every civil rights movement in history.



I don't know how anyone could compare civil rights (and laws which rightly guarantee equality in society for whole and sadly disciminated sections of it) with individual cases - some definitely real and terrible, but others probably fake or exaggerated - which can only be judged separately and for which laws - thank God - already exist. If one is fair and not blinded by excited fanaticism, I mean.

When I read this person's florid and clearly agitated posts I realize even more how dangerous this situation could become in the future. The idea that lives can be destroyed by lies because, well, it's for a higher goal, is so devoid of any humanity and ethical conscience that it makes me scared now. Not even angry anymore. Scared. Since this person has used the civil rights movements in a totally inappropriate way, I will do something similar and say I can only imagine what this person would have said and how he would have acted for example in Nazi Germany or other regimes, when fake accusations where the norm and, again, for a higher goal.

Interestingly, all this from someone who - in another thread - joined others in accusing me of being pro-rape :D See how everything has a logic? I think this is very interesting, really. And I'm glad to see others here being more balanced in their examination of such a complex, subtle, and sometimes contradictory issue. Each case must be judged individually - those who try desperately to apply their general, and self-serving theories to ALL of them do a disservice first of all to truth, which is never unique, then to humanity, which is compoed of so many different fragments and can't be unified (though it is of course much simpler and reassuring not to understand this). And, lastly, to themselves, for many reasons which I don't want to go into now.

I swear that I don't have anything against this Sonic Youth. I even chosed to forget - and forgive - his homophobic remarks from years ago. I don't think he is a bad person or a stupid one. I'm sure that his ideas and principles come from something deep inside himself. But can I be honest? If Americans were all like him, I'd be worried. Very worried.

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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby Big Magilla » Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:06 am

I'll say this. If Moore loses and loses big on Tuesday, it will give credence to the idea that all this "enough is enough" talk is having an effect.

It hasn't gotten a lot of play, but the fact that requests for absentee ballots is up 9 times in Republican areas that have voted against Moore in the pas could be significant. Even so, however, Democrats will have to show up in Obama-like numbers to bury him for sure.
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby Greg » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:19 pm

Sonic Youth wrote:Fortunately, we have civil rights laws that frown against this sort of thing, and I think being on the side of civil rights is generally a good thing. I'd re-emphasize if I were you, warning bosses to not deny women employment, rather than caution women not to get too "uppity" lest it backfire.


Although, it is impossible to enforce laws regarding discrimination in hiring. That is because employers are allowed to conduct interviews before they hire applicants. This allows employers to turn down applicants for any reason they wish, and, if any questions are asked, they can always say, "The applicant performed poorly in the interview."
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby Sonic Youth » Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:51 am

Big Magilla wrote:
Sonic Youth wrote:
Big Magilla wrote:As for backfiring on Democrats, I wouldn't worry about it. Women make up about 50% of the electorate, more or less. They'll be fine.


And women all of a sudden are going to band together and vote as a bloc? That will never happen.

No woman should have voted for Trump, yet enough either stayed home or voted for him anyway, and not just women in Alabama. A lot of women are harder on other women than they are on men.

While I know a lot of smart, enlightened women who keep up with the issues, I also know a lot who, like thier male coutnerparts, are either too busy working to pay attention to what's going on in the world outside of the headlines, all of which they get filtered thorugh Fox News, while others stay at home and watch Sean Hannity and his ilk all day.

Reforms have to be made to treat women with greater dignity in the workplace, and they will be, but the vote is another matter entirely. No woman or man is going to vote against their Congressman or Senator because he or she belongs to the party of Trump and Moore. They will vote against him or her if they feel he or she hasn't or won't do anything for them. As Oscar Hammerstein put it in "What's the Use of Wond'rin" in Carousel, all the rest is talk.


That cuts both ways, you know. If everything you said above was true, then it also belies your original statement that this will backfire on the Democrats.
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby Precious Doll » Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:11 am

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/d ... ill-happen

The Academy could consider a low-key untelevised ceremony but I suspect they make a lot of money from having it televised in the first place.
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby Big Magilla » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:06 am

Sonic Youth wrote:
Big Magilla wrote:As for backfiring on Democrats, I wouldn't worry about it. Women make up about 50% of the electorate, more or less. They'll be fine.


And women all of a sudden are going to band together and vote as a bloc? That will never happen.

No woman should have voted for Trump, yet enough either stayed home or voted for him anyway, and not just women in Alabama. A lot of women are harder on other women than they are on men.

While I know a lot of smart, enlightened women who keep up with the issues, I also know a lot who, like thier male coutnerparts, are either too busy working to pay attention to what's going on in the world outside of the headlines, all of which they get filtered thorugh Fox News, while others stay at home and watch Sean Hannity and his ilk all day.

Reforms have to be made to treat women with greater dignity in the workplace, and they will be, but the vote is another matter entirely. No woman or man is going to vote against their Congressman or Senator because he or she belongs to the party of Trump and Moore. They will vote against him or her if they feel he or she hasn't or won't do anything for them. As Oscar Hammerstein put it in "What's the Use of Wond'rin" in Carousel, all the rest is talk.
“‎Life is a shipwreck, but we must not forget to sing in the lifeboats.” - Voltaire

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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby Precious Doll » Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:10 am

Geoffrey Rush to sue Murdoch rag:

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2017/d ... our-report

These are links to an earlier scandal in Australia relating to actress Maggie Kirkpatrick. The first from The Wrap reports of the guilty verdict dished out by the courts. The second is from The Guardian of her conviction being overturned on appeal. This case illustrates what a slippery slide a single allegation can be:

https://www.thewrap.com/prisoner-actres ... lestation/

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-n ... overturned
"I have no interest in all of that. I find that all tabloid stupidity" Woody Allen, The Guardian, 2014, in response to his adopted daughter's allegations.

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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby Sonic Youth » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:45 am

Big Magilla wrote:
This whole thing could backfire, not only on the Democrats, but women in the workplace as well. We're already beginning to hear stories about male executives being afraid to hire women for fear that the slightest thing, a raised voice, a cuss word in a lady's presence, or something else that wasn't tolerated a hundred years ago, will result in a complaint of sexual harassment against them.


Now who's applying "purity tests"?

Do you realize what Methuselahs some of you sound like right now? You could say "This whole thing could backfire on ______ in the workplace as well", and substitute "women" with "negroes" or "queers" (and I could have used worse words) and placed the sentence into 1961 or 1981 respectively, and what would that have sounded like? Fortunately, we have civil rights laws that frown against this sort of thing, and I think being on the side of civil rights is generally a good thing. I'd re-emphasize if I were you, warning bosses to not deny women employment, rather than caution women not to get too "uppity" lest it backfire.

Yes, there's going to be false accusations, mistaken accusations, and exaggerated accusations. All of this, unfortunately, also happened with every civil rights movement in history. It shouldn't happen. But it does. Historically, it's one of the inevitable consequences whenever there's a liberation movement going on. There will always be victims of an injustice as the oppressed or mistreated group in question assert themselves. We're fooling ourselves if we're expecting a nice, clean, victim-less paradigm shift. There's no such thing. That doesn't mean it's lost legitimacy.

ETA: As for backfiring on Democrats, I wouldn't worry about it. Women make up about 50% of the electorate, more or less. They'll be fine.
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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby Okri » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:37 am

What Sonic and BJ said.

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Re: Web of Sex Scandals

Postby The Original BJ » Fri Dec 08, 2017 12:26 am

I'm sort of amazed this shoe didn't drop sooner, but I imagine this is the beginning of a Weinstein-level avalanche of allegations against Bryan Singer. I've never crossed paths with him personally, but as a young man starting out in Hollywood a decade ago, I was warned plenty by people to stay away from this guy, and the stories swirling around him are pretty disgusting.

http://deadline.com/2017/12/bryan-singer-sued-sexual-assault-underage-boy-yacht-2003-1202222501/


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