I Side With...

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criddic3
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Re: I Side With...

Postby criddic3 » Sat Oct 13, 2012 6:17 pm

Sonic Youth wrote:
criddic3 wrote:So what are we talking about here? My use of the word "many"?


Yes, criddic. If I made any error in understanding your meaning, then the reason was precisely in your use of the word "many". And I think you've been told by nearly everyone you've argued with here for the past ten years - over and over and over again - that the way you use the word "many" in your arguments distorts and misrepresents the facts you are trying to put across. You said "That's the problem with many atheists is that they go on rants mocking any and all religion instead of calmly explaining why they don't believe in it." I took your statement at face value. If I was mistaken in my interpretation of your intent, and you really meant to say something like "a few atheists, but it feels like many to me", then I will take you for your word, and hope you'll recognize and acknowledge the error you made.


I just meant that whenever an atheist talks to me about religion, it always begins with "how can you believe such nonsense!" Or something along those lines. It never, and I mean never, begins with "oh, okay I respect that you believe that. let me tell you why I disagree."
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Re: I Side With...

Postby Sonic Youth » Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:29 pm

criddic3 wrote:So what are we talking about here? My use of the word "many"?


Yes, criddic. If I made any error in understanding your meaning, then the reason was precisely in your use of the word "many". And I think you've been told by nearly everyone you've argued with here for the past ten years - over and over and over again - that the way you use the word "many" in your arguments distorts and misrepresents the facts you are trying to put across. You said "That's the problem with many atheists is that they go on rants mocking any and all religion instead of calmly explaining why they don't believe in it." I took your statement at face value. If I was mistaken in my interpretation of your intent, and you really meant to say something like "a few atheists, but it feels like many to me", then I will take you for your word, and hope you'll recognize and acknowledge the error you made.
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Re: I Side With...

Postby criddic3 » Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:44 pm

Sonic Youth wrote:
Coincidentally, Pew research just came out with a poll about American atheism, agnosticism and religious non-affiliation. I suggest you read it:

http://www.pewforum.org/Unaffiliated/no ... -rise.aspx

For more than 20 years, the population of the non-religious has doubled, and Christian fundamentalism is on the wane. 6 percent of Americans are agnostic or atheists. That's 13 million people. I guarantee you that you have only heard a precious few of those 13 million people going on rants about religion. "Many" (your word) people on the wrong side of a social stigma don't usually rant, but politely keep to themselves.

So spare me your comments like "you have to wonder what planet they live on". Yes, it would be nice if all people were polite rather than impolite, but if the brusqueness of certain public atheists were really so rude, off-putting and polarizing, then secularization wouldn't have increased at such a fast rate in this country. You're the one who needs to readjust your perspective, not the "louder" atheists.


By the same token, the loudest religious radicals are the ones we hear from any faiths. Of course there can be millions of atheists who "keep to themselves," just as there are millions of "Christian fundamentalists" who do the same. So what are we talking about here? My use of the word "many"? Well, what I said is not untrue. Many of the loudest atheists do mock religion rather than quietly live as non-observers. I am not a Christian fundamentalist, so I can't feel personally attacked by this line of reasoning. You seem to imply that because there are millions of "polite" atheists in America that it somehow makes it okay to mock those that do have a belief in religion. I was simply stating the obvious, which is that whenever we hear from atheists, it's usually an attack on those who believe in God. It's never "I just don't think it exists." It's usually "If you believe in that crappy phony religion, you must be insane!" I don't think it's that such an approach is not off-putting. After all, atheists are far from a majority in this country. There are other factors involved, chiefly the way the Catholic church handled the child abuse scandal in more recent years. It seemed to point to rampant hypocrisy on the part of some senior members, and it has caused many Christian believers to lose faith in the institution of religion in general. Yet despite all that, there are millions of people who do believe in God in some form or another. And most of those people aren't in-your-face about it either. I was mainly concerned with those who openly mock people of faith. I think it's rude and harmful to society, but they have a right to speak their minds, too.
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Re: I Side With...

Postby Sonic Youth » Thu Oct 11, 2012 9:06 am

criddic3 wrote:
I think that could be an exaggeration. This country was founded partly on the idea of free speech and freedom to worship or not worship as you wish. I'm not an evangelical, and I have problems with my own Catholic church, but I would never want someone fired for expressing their atheist belief. I would only feel offended if the person specifically mocked certain religions. That's the problem with many atheists is that they go on rants mocking any and all religion instead of calmly explaining why they don't believe in it.


Actually, many atheists keep their mouths shut, only you don't know it. The few that are bold enough speak to out are the type that come across as intemperate in general. But they're not necessarily representative of most atheists who are either keep quiet out of respect to others or are not comfortable to reveal their beliefs to those who are religious. You say the problem with atheists is that they mock the religious. But fundamentalists don't mock atheists. They demonize them. And let's not pretend it doesn't happen, and that it's not worse.


Well, I'm not a fundamentalist. And I would say that any blanket statement about any (peaceful) group is unwise. Most people who believe in religion in America are what might be termed "mainstream" in that they believe in God but don't necessarily try to force that view on to others. Yet when people like Bill Maher talk about religion, they mock the intelligence of those who believe in a higher being. As was mentioned before, intellectuals like Thomas Jefferson even believed there to be a higher power than ourselves. So, when those louder atheists post signs up saying that not believing in God is simply the smart thing, you have to wonder what planet they live on.


Coincidentally, Pew research just came out with a poll about American atheism, agnosticism and religious non-affiliation. I suggest you read it:

http://www.pewforum.org/Unaffiliated/no ... -rise.aspx

For more than 20 years, the population of the non-religious has doubled, and Christian fundamentalism is on the wane. 6 percent of Americans are agnostic or atheists. That's 13 million people. I guarantee you that you have only heard a precious few of those 13 million people going on rants about religion. "Many" (your word) people on the wrong side of a social stigma don't usually rant, but politely keep to themselves.

So spare me your comments like "you have to wonder what planet they live on". Yes, it would be nice if all people were polite rather than impolite, but if the brusqueness of certain public atheists were really so rude, off-putting and polarizing, then secularization wouldn't have increased at such a fast rate in this country. You're the one who needs to readjust your perspective, not the "louder" atheists.
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Re: I Side With...

Postby criddic3 » Wed Oct 10, 2012 8:13 pm

Greg wrote:So, a little while back I decided to vote for Obama and not Jill Stein. As disappointed as I have been with Obama not going far enough with public works to bring the economy back, I still suspect that if there is enough political support he and, if the Democrats take back the House, the Congress would be willing to go farther, such as with the American Jobs Act, only bigger. I think my vote to help Obama win a bigger victory and do what I can for Democrats in the Senate/House races where I will vote will be at least be a small step in this direction, more so than a protest vote for Stein.


I know that President Obama has a pretty good chance of winning re-election (though I'm hoping for the opposite), but there is no evidence that the Democrats will take back the House. Even the most optimistic predictions leave the Republicans with a 17 seat majority. The real battle is for the Senate, where the Democrats are defending their majority. Still, the intriguing possibility is that nothing will change at all. The president could win, with a split Congress that contains smaller majorities in the House for Republicans and in the Senate for Democrats. The big question in that scenario is 'how will they decide to compromise on the major issues of the day?'

Sabin wrote:I just drove through Missouri. Kansas City, Wentzville, and St. Louis, stopping in each one. I saw no shortage of Todd Akin signs. This doesn't mean that they're all put their by choice by passionate voters, but even if they're placed by the arm of the machine, that still sucks. The narrative that abandoning Akin not outweighing the need for a majority in the Senate could would.


I hated what Todd Akin said and have been kind of shocked by the support he's been getting from the party. I mean, even Sarah Palin suggested running a third party candidate against him if he didn't leave the race. The only explanation is that the party thinks abandoning him completely would hurt their chances of taking a majority in the Senate. It's a purely political play. And it might work, but if I had a say in the matter I would have cut him loose.
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Re: I Side With...

Postby Sabin » Wed Oct 10, 2012 4:28 pm

I just drove through Missouri. Kansas City, Wentzville, and St. Louis, stopping in each one. I saw no shortage of Todd Akin signs. This doesn't mean that they're all put their by choice by passionate voters, but even if they're placed by the arm of the machine, that still sucks. The narrative that abandoning Akin not outweighing the need for a majority in the Senate could would.
"If you are marching with white nationalists, you are by definition not a very nice person. If Malala Yousafzai had taken part in that rally, you'd have to say 'Okay, I guess Malala sucks now.'" ~ John Oliver

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Re: I Side With...

Postby OscarGuy » Wed Oct 10, 2012 3:35 pm

Our downslide in population has been from urban areas mostly, meaning that the hicks in the rest of the state are starting to overpower everything. Republicans have a veto-proof majority in both chambers of state congress. The state is slipping hopelessly into the brink of religious fanaticism.
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Re: I Side With...

Postby Sabin » Wed Oct 10, 2012 2:28 pm

@Greg
Yikes. Yeah. Wow. Um, just...do whatever you think is right.

@OscarGuy
Nate Silver is giving Missouri to Romney with 95% certainty. Now, that's not a lock, but...
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Re: I Side With...

Postby OscarGuy » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:45 am

The sad part is I'm thinking about a protest vote for Jill Stein. Since Missouri seems to be a forgone conclusion for Romney, I don't feel my presidential vote will matter otherwise. And after his awful performance at the debates, I'm not as inclined to support him on the state level, though nationally, I would prefer him to win.
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Re: I Side With...

Postby Greg » Mon Oct 08, 2012 9:35 am

Florida, the biggest battleground state.
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Re: I Side With...

Postby Sabin » Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:04 pm

What state do you live in?
I live in California, so my vote for President is negligible.
"If you are marching with white nationalists, you are by definition not a very nice person. If Malala Yousafzai had taken part in that rally, you'd have to say 'Okay, I guess Malala sucks now.'" ~ John Oliver

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Re: I Side With...

Postby Greg » Sat Oct 06, 2012 4:18 pm

So, a little while back I decided to vote for Obama and not Jill Stein. As disappointed as I have been with Obama not going far enough with public works to bring the economy back, I still suspect that if there is enough political support he and, if the Democrats take back the House, the Congress would be willing to go farther, such as with the American Jobs Act, only bigger. I think my vote to help Obama win a bigger victory and do what I can for Deomcrats in the Senate/House races where I will vote will be at least be a small step in this direction, more so than a protest vote for Stein.
"Wall Street is not the solution to our problem. Wall Street is the problem!"

Ronald Reagan, corrected

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Re: I Side With...

Postby ITALIANO » Tue Sep 11, 2012 3:18 am

Johnny Guitar wrote:
ITALIANO wrote:But you were also talking about me. And really, I think I'm much softer now. With Americans, even. Still, I can't forgive ANYTHING... come on...


I'd say I was talking about you only indirectly - in that I was thinking, "Ah, look at the same old debates still going on here." (I haven't visited the board for quite a while.) But I didn't mean to imply anything about your stances or your expression. Actually in this case it's more me who's changed a lot over the past 10-15 years. I agree with all of your opinions in this thread, and agree with them to the extent that I know just how patient and gentle your language actually was..


Just imagine what I would have said only a few years ago...

But you for example are one of those who seems to completely free of the influence from that kind of American propaganda, and of course I'm sure that you aren't the only one. I wonder if it's just a personal thing or it depends on the education one gets, or on family, or on what else.

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Re: I Side With...

Postby Johnny Guitar » Mon Sep 10, 2012 5:46 pm

ITALIANO wrote:But you were also talking about me. And really, I think I'm much softer now. With Americans, even. Still, I can't forgive ANYTHING... come on...


I'd say I was talking about you only indirectly - in that I was thinking, "Ah, look at the same old debates still going on here." (I haven't visited the board for quite a while.) But I didn't mean to imply anything about your stances or your expression. Actually in this case it's more me who's changed a lot over the past 10-15 years. I agree with all of your opinions in this thread, and agree with them to the extent that I know just how patient and gentle your language actually was.

criddic3 wrote:Glad I could be of some comfort, Johnny G. I'm glad to know that wasn't accompanied by rolling eyes. Hey, progress is progress after all!


Well, not entirely with rolling eyes anyway! Your opinions about scientific method & democracy are ludicrous and totally misinformed but hey, on this board, you're our guy with ludicrous opinions, I guess. Good ol' criddic.

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Re: I Side With...

Postby criddic3 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 4:44 pm

Johnny Guitar wrote:It's good to know that some things never change, or at least, change very slowly.


Glad I could be of some comfort, Johnny G. I'm glad to know that wasn't accompanied by rolling eyes. Hey, progress is progress after all!
"If you can't stand the nut on the left and you can't stand the nut on the right, go for the Johnson,” Jonathan S. Bush (10/21/2016)


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