I Side With...

ITALIANO
Emeritus
Posts: 3956
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 1:58 pm
Location: MILAN
Contact:

Re: I Side With...

Postby ITALIANO » Tue Sep 04, 2012 8:00 am

OscarGuy wrote:Apparently, Italiano, you didn't read my post. TV pundits don't discuss atheism because the large number of Christians in the country would descend on them like vultures and they would be fired for even espousing that belief. The only time I ever hear it discussed in specific terms is in comedy circles where they can play it off as a joke. There are plenty of Americans who don't believe in the existence of God.


I do read your posts, of course - and let me say that you have changed alot in the last few years, thank God - and my post was an indirect way of approving yours.

As for Big Magilla's post, I don't understand in which order these persons are listed, but yes, of course there must be Americans who don't believe in God - I was just wondering if this issue is discussed in the media, on tv for example, so that it can be shared not only by the intellectuals but also by the so-called "common people".

Big Magilla
Site Admin
Posts: 15660
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 3:22 pm
Location: Jersey Shore

Re: I Side With...

Postby Big Magilla » Tue Sep 04, 2012 7:32 am

101 Famous Atheists

This is probably the only time you'll ever see Helen Keller and Ray Romano on the same list. posted about a year ago

Matt Stopera BuzzFeed Staff

1. Woody Allen
2. Lance Armstrong
3. Kevin Bacon
4. Björk
5. James Cameron
6. Fidel Castro
7. David Duchovny
8. Alan Cumming
9. Rodney Dangerfield
10. Ani DiFranco
11. Roger Ebert
12. Bret Easton Ellis
13. Jodie Foster
14. Noam Chomsky
15. Sigmund Freud
16. Marlon Brando
17. Kim Jong-il
18. Ricky Gervais
19. Hugh Hefner
20. Mikhail Gorbachev
21. Seth Green
22. Kathy Griffin
23. Che Guevara
24. Ernest Hemingway
25. Eddie Izzard
26. Billy Joel
27. Frida Kahlo
28. Bruce Lee
29. John Lennon
30. Norm Macdonald
31. Bill Maher
32. Barry Manilow
33. Mao Zedong
34. Seth MacFarlane
35. Julianne Moore
36. Rafael Nadal
37. Randy Newman
38. Jack Nicholson
39. George Orwell
40. Barack Obama Sr.
41. Joaquin Phoenix
42. Brad Pitt
43. Daniel Radcliffe
44. Andy Rooney
45. Margaret Sanger
46. Sarah Silverman
47. Joseph Stalin
48. Howard Stern
49. Ted Turner
50. Eddie Vedder
51. Ted Williams
52. Frank Zappa
53. Mark Zuckerberg
54. Charlie Chaplin
55. Jamie Hyneman
56. Angelina Jolie
57. Larry King
58. Stanley Kubrick
59. John Malkovich
60. Helen Mirren
61. Gene Wilder
62. Keanu Reeves
63. Adam Savage
64. Penn & Teller
65. Warren Buffett
66. Liam Gallagher
67. Katharine Hepburn
68. Simone de Beauvoir
69. Richard Dawkins
70. Thomas Edison
71. Harvey Fierstein
72. Janeane Garofalo
73. Jamiroquai
74. Artie Lange
75. Ayn Rand
76. Burt Lancaster
77. Arthur Miller
78. Patton Oswalt
79. Ray Romano
80. Paula Poundstone
81. Diego Rivera
82. Joe Rogan
83. Louis Theroux
84. Jimmy Wales
85. Kurt Vonnegut
86. Virginia Woolf
87. Richard Branson
88. Marlene Dietrich
89. Mark Twain
90. Edgar Allan Poe
91. Andrew Carnegie
92. Marie Curie
93. Diane Keaton
94. Helen Keller
95. Phyllis Diller
96. Larry Flynt
97. Susan B. Anthony
98. Charlie Kaufman
99. William Shatner
100. Billie Joe Armstrong
101. Bill Nye
“‎Life is a shipwreck, but we must not forget to sing in the lifeboats.” - Voltaire

User avatar
OscarGuy
Site Admin
Posts: 12539
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 12:22 am
Location: Springfield, MO
Contact:

Re: I Side With...

Postby OscarGuy » Tue Sep 04, 2012 6:05 am

Apparently, Italiano, you didn't read my post. TV pundits don't discuss atheism because the large number of Christians in the country would descend on them like vultures and they would be fired for even espousing that belief. The only time I ever hear it discussed in specific terms is in comedy circles where they can play it off as a joke. There are plenty of Americans who don't believe in the existence of God.
Wesley Lovell
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - Benjamin Franklin

ITALIANO
Emeritus
Posts: 3956
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 1:58 pm
Location: MILAN
Contact:

Re: I Side With...

Postby ITALIANO » Tue Sep 04, 2012 1:02 am

kaytodd wrote:Thanks Italiano. I feel better about the US of A knowing you remain on our side :wink: .


Maybe not exactly on your side, but I've tried to understand Americans. I have to - Americans will always be around, at least during my lifetime, and one can't fight forever. And now I've come to realize that it's not even a question of being intelligent or being stupid - stupid people are everywhere, of course. It's probably a question of education. Because if one thinks that a scientific theory - just because of that word, "theory" - is something that can be easily doubted or dismissed, that's because, simply, he hasn't been taught not just science, but RESPECT for science - and for history, and for the history of science. If you don't study these things at school, when you are very young, you will grow up weak from this point of view, more easily influenceable, unable to distinguish between science - which may sometimes be proven to be wrong, of course (even science evolves), but only to be replaced by another SCIENTIFIC theory - and religion, or even superstition.

(This, by the way, makes people weak on other aspects of life too - they can really be led to believe that, say, all Iraqis are bad and responsible for September, 11 or, on a lighter side, that Viola Davis is as great as Katharine Hepburn. When you lack historical perspective, you are lost.)

Plus, I mean, I don't want to schock too many people here, but before proclaming that God created the Universe, the animals, the hunan beings etc... are we REALLY sure that God exists? I mean, I don't have the answer to this, but is it possible that NOBODY in America ever asks this simple, yet extremely profound, question? On these beloved tv talk-shows, for example. Or the politicians, Doesn't atheism exist in the US? It's not a sickness. I find it weird, sorry.

User avatar
OscarGuy
Site Admin
Posts: 12539
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 12:22 am
Location: Springfield, MO
Contact:

Re: I Side With...

Postby OscarGuy » Mon Sep 03, 2012 6:46 pm

The Wikipedia article on Scientific Theory has the best description of the term I can find.

"A scientific theory is "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment."Scientists create scientific theories from hypotheses that have been corroborated through the scientific method, then gather evidence to test their accuracy. As with all forms of scientific knowledge, scientific theories are inductive in nature and do not make apodictic propositions; instead, they aim for predictive and explanatory force.
The strength of a scientific theory is related to the diversity of phenomena it can explain, which is measured by its ability to make falsifiable predictions with respect to those phenomena. Theories are improved as more evidence is gathered, so that accuracy in prediction improves over time. Scientists use theories as a foundation to gain further scientific knowledge, as well as to accomplish goals such as inventing technology or curing disease.
Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge. This is significantly different from the word "theory" in common usage, which implies that something is unproven or speculative."


Saying Scientific Theory is not proven and therefore should not be taken as fact would mean that you don't believe in the Theory of Relativity or cell theory, germ theory, collision theory, molecular theory and any number of other theories in science.

What you're describing criddic are hypotheses. Hypotheses are not empirically tested and merely provide a basis and imprint for further research.

Evolutionary Theory suggests a common ancestor in the distant path. It does not mean that we are DESCENDED from anything. What evolution teaches us is that over time, various organizations adapt to their environments in order to survive. There are bountiful mounds of evidence to suggest that we are not the same as humans who lived many centuries ago. As time has progressed, the environment and other factors have caused the human body to adapt to various external stimuli. If you've ever used or heard the term "that which does not kill us makes us stronger," you are espousing a belief in evolutionary theory. That which does not kill us DOES make us stronger and there's plenty of evidence to suggest that. Those who don't want to believe in evolution do so because they believe that science will ultimately disprove God and prove that his existence is counter-productive to the theory.

Yet, if he is omnipotent and omnipresent, then it is entirely possible that he devised evolution as a way for the human race to continue in perpetuity. If you believe in God, you also believe that he gave man Free Will and Free Will can lead to many negative things, including the creation of things that will ultimately destroy humanity (think nuclear weapons). So, it's rather myopic to believe that evolution cannot exist because believing in anything other than evolution is to suggest that human civilization itself is finite because we will eventually destroy ourselves if we don't adapt to it.

Of course, I'm not advocating for the existence of a creator because I see little difference between the gods of the Ancient Greeks or the Native Americans and the one God of Christianity. The only difference is that one eradicated the other. They both believed that God or gods created the world, that they influence the world and will protect them if the believer should pray to them. You can site any number of beliefs the Greeks had and I can point to an equally valid belief that Christians today possess, whether it's deific possession, deific intervention or any number of other events. Does he exist? I don't know and quite frankly, I don't care to know.
Wesley Lovell

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - Benjamin Franklin

User avatar
criddic3
Tenured
Posts: 2750
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2003 11:08 pm
Location: New York, USA
Contact:

Re: I Side With...

Postby criddic3 » Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:45 pm

Big Magilla wrote:
criddic3 wrote:
By the same token, there are ultra-religious people who will never believe in anything scientific. I don't think that's fair either.


They're not ultra-religious, they're head-in-the-sand nut jobs. Science does not disprove religion, it merely fills in the gaps. Only whack jobs beleive that God literally created the Universe in seven days and that that dinosaurs and men walked the Earth at the same time.

As for men being descneded from apes, that is still open to question. There is still that pesky missing link.


As for God creating the universe in 7 days, well why not? But there are some who believe the line about "on the seventh day he rested" is metaphorical and not literal. I wasn't there so I don't know which is true. However, I agree with you that only nut/whack jobs refuse to consider alternatives to their thinking. I would never tell someone they had to change their thinking, but I would suggest that they consider that they may be wrong. In a Democracy, everyone can have any opinion they want. That's why I think all theories should be taught about in schools. Kids can learn by forming their own opinions on these kinds of matters.
"If you can't stand the nut on the left and you can't stand the nut on the right, go for the Johnson,” Jonathan S. Bush (10/21/2016)

User avatar
kaytodd
Assistant
Posts: 846
Joined: Wed Feb 12, 2003 10:16 pm
Location: New Orleans

Re: I Side With...

Postby kaytodd » Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:20 pm

Thanks Italiano. I feel better about the US of A knowing you remain on our side :wink:

I was taught humans did not descend from apes but that modern apes and humans have a common ancestor. The expression "Darwin said humans descended from apes" is an epithet designed to discredit those who support evolution. It is scary how many people in positions of power are seeking to discredit science in order to further a political agenda. I wonder if they understand the full potential impact of their efforts.
The great thing in the world is not so much where we stand, as in what direction we are moving. It's faith in something and enthusiasm for something that makes a life worth living. Oliver Wendell Holmes

Big Magilla
Site Admin
Posts: 15660
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 3:22 pm
Location: Jersey Shore

Re: I Side With...

Postby Big Magilla » Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:18 pm

criddic3 wrote:
By the same token, there are ultra-religious people who will never believe in anything scientific. I don't think that's fair either.


They're not ultra-religious, they're head-in-the-sand nut jobs. Science does not disprove religion, it merely fills in the gaps. Only whack jobs beleive that God literally created the Universe in seven days and that that dinosaurs and men walked the Earth at the same time.

As for men being descended from apes, that is still open to question. There is still that pesky missing link.
“‎Life is a shipwreck, but we must not forget to sing in the lifeboats.” - Voltaire

User avatar
criddic3
Tenured
Posts: 2750
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2003 11:08 pm
Location: New York, USA
Contact:

Re: I Side With...

Postby criddic3 » Mon Sep 03, 2012 3:07 pm

Well, it has to do with science, but never mind... I just wonder - what do Americans learn at school? Superstitions? But I don't want to start another war. America is beautiful, always, and I am its number 1 fan.


Yes, but science isn't always absolute. Scientists speculate all the time, based on their research. For instance, we don't really know how the dinosaurs behaved. We speculate based on what we think their environment was and their basic physical structure. There are also theories about how they became extinct. Most of those theories are science-based, but there is dispute about how they lived and died. The same is true about evolution or global warming. You can choose to believe one theory over another, but scientists are only people. They aren't infallible. To teach one theory over another based on some kind of group consensus doesn't make too much sense. Some scientists who were all-in about global warming later said that there may be exaggeration in such reporting or that some of their theories/conclusions may have been incorrect. It is good to take all these theories into consideration when forming an opinion on what the truth is, but to shut out anyone who disputes a theory is -- frankly-- unscientific. Scientists believe in probing for truth, or at least a version of truth that fits the evidence before them. By the same token, there are ultra-religious people who will never believe in anything scientific. I don't think that's fair either.
"If you can't stand the nut on the left and you can't stand the nut on the right, go for the Johnson,” Jonathan S. Bush (10/21/2016)

ITALIANO
Emeritus
Posts: 3956
Joined: Mon Jan 06, 2003 1:58 pm
Location: MILAN
Contact:

Re: I Side With...

Postby ITALIANO » Mon Sep 03, 2012 2:12 pm

criddic3 wrote:
Big Magilla wrote:
ITALIANO wrote:Now, the question on everybody's (or at least on my) mind is... who on Earth is Jill Stein?!

And most importantly, who could answer "no" to the question about Evolution? Unless there are more recent theories I don't know about of course.


Jill Stein is the Green Party candidate. Greg has been advocating for her for a while, but she has no chance.

Sadly, many on the so-called religious right in this country still take the bible literally and do not believe in evolution.


I am one who believes that these theories are not incompatible. God can still create people, and they could still have evolved from apes (although I have a hard time believing that part of it myself). The point for me is that these are theories. The "Theory" of Evolution. It is not called the "Fact" of Evolution. Someone came up with a conclusion based on his research, but that doesn't mean he was right. And yet there are people (I won't say just Democrats or liberals, or even atheists) who say anyone who disputes the validity of this theory has to be crazy. It isn't that someone like me thinks that evolution is an invalid theory, but that it is but one theory. What's wrong with that?



Well, it has to do with science, but never mind... I just wonder - what do Americans learn at school? Superstitions? But I don't want to start another war. America is beautiful, always, and I am its number 1 fan.

User avatar
criddic3
Tenured
Posts: 2750
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2003 11:08 pm
Location: New York, USA
Contact:

Re: I Side With...

Postby criddic3 » Mon Sep 03, 2012 1:52 pm

Big Magilla wrote:
ITALIANO wrote:Now, the question on everybody's (or at least on my) mind is... who on Earth is Jill Stein?!

And most importantly, who could answer "no" to the question about Evolution? Unless there are more recent theories I don't know about of course.


Jill Stein is the Green Party candidate. Greg has been advocating for her for a while, but she has no chance.

Sadly, many on the so-called religious right in this country still take the bible literally and do not believe in evolution.


I am one who believes that these theories are not incompatible. God can still create people, and they could still have evolved from apes (although I have a hard time believing that part of it myself). The point for me is that these are theories. The "Theory" of Evolution. It is not called the "Fact" of Evolution. Someone came up with a conclusion based on his research, but that doesn't mean he was right. And yet there are people (I won't say just Democrats or liberals, or even atheists) who say anyone who disputes the validity of this theory has to be crazy. It isn't that someone like me thinks that evolution is an invalid theory, but that it is but one theory. What's wrong with that?
"If you can't stand the nut on the left and you can't stand the nut on the right, go for the Johnson,” Jonathan S. Bush (10/21/2016)

FilmFan720
Tenured
Posts: 3449
Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2003 3:57 pm
Location: Illinois

Re: I Side With...

Postby FilmFan720 » Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:53 am

Barack Obama
on foreign policy, economic, science, social, healthcare, and environmental issues
80%
Jill Stein
on foreign policy, science, economic, social, and environmental issues
51%
Rocky Anderson
on foreign policy and social issues
36%
Mitt Romney
no major issues
59%
Illinois Voters
on foreign policy, science, economic, social, environmental, and immigration issues.
57%
American Voters
on foreign policy, science, economic, social, environmental, and immigration issues.

90%
Democratic
74%
Green
46%
Republican
13%
Libertarian
"Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good."
- Minor Myers, Jr.

User avatar
criddic3
Tenured
Posts: 2750
Joined: Thu Jan 09, 2003 11:08 pm
Location: New York, USA
Contact:

Re: I Side With...

Postby criddic3 » Mon Sep 03, 2012 10:43 am

Mitt Romney 90%
Gary Johnson 67%
Barack Obama 66%
NY voters 46%
American Voters 49%
Jill Stein 15%

Republican 88%
Libertarian 57%
Democrat 34%
Green 8%
"If you can't stand the nut on the left and you can't stand the nut on the right, go for the Johnson,” Jonathan S. Bush (10/21/2016)

mlrg
Adjunct
Posts: 1104
Joined: Tue Dec 07, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Lisbon, Portugal

Re: I Side With...

Postby mlrg » Mon Sep 03, 2012 8:00 am

I'm not an american citizen but here it goes:

Jill Stein 86%
Barack Obama 79%
Gary Johnson 74%
Mitt Romney 37%

Green 90%
Democratic 89%
Libertarian 60%
Republican 37%

Big Magilla
Site Admin
Posts: 15660
Joined: Wed Jan 01, 2003 3:22 pm
Location: Jersey Shore

Re: I Side With...

Postby Big Magilla » Mon Sep 03, 2012 4:44 am

ITALIANO wrote:Now, the question on everybody's (or at least on my) mind is... who on Earth is Jill Stein?!

And most importantly, who could answer "no" to the question about Evolution? Unless there are more recent theories I don't know about of course.


Jill Stein is the Green Party candidate. Greg has been advocating for her for a while, but she has no chance.

Sadly, many on the so-called religious right in this country still take the bible literally and do not believe in evolution.
“‎Life is a shipwreck, but we must not forget to sing in the lifeboats.” - Voltaire


Return to “Current Events”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests