2008 Oscar Shouldabeens

Okri
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Postby Okri » Tue Feb 03, 2009 8:34 pm

For those who think Ledger is lead, how did you feel about Bardem in No Country for Old Men - leading or support?

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Postby dreaMaker » Tue Feb 03, 2009 9:01 am

Well, also both Meryl Streep in Devil Wears Prada and Forest Whitaker in Last King of Scotland are supporting, too...

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Postby Precious Doll » Tue Feb 03, 2009 2:44 am

flipp525 wrote:Precious Doll, what did Alison Pill do in Milk to merit a nomination? Just curious what your thoughts are. She physically looked the part and was capable in the sort of butch, take-the-reins sort of way, but I thought she had very little to do in the film.

The clinch for me with Pill was her last scene towards the end of the film with James Franco. Though it wasn't a 'big scene' it was quietly moving in a pivotal moment in the film. I also liked the fact that her small role didn't fall into caricature. Whilst that probably has more to do with Van Sant, Pill deserves some credit for it too.
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Postby Sabin » Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:06 pm

As the leading debater against leading actors delegated to supporting as works of the devil: I concede, re: Gleeson. Changes are made.

Let's get real here: The Golden Globes will throw any performance into "lead" in order to fill up the musical/comedy category. Using the Golden Globes as your barometer, you'd also need to argue that Batman '89 is a comedy or a musical, which it clearly isn't.

I'm using the fact that the movie was about him as my barometer. The movie should have been called "Joker" for god's sake. You can go both ways with Ledger but the guy dominates the movie for at least half the film's screen time, or at the very least as much as Christian "You're fuckin' trashin' my scene!" Bale. Nicholson is completely a lead.

Incidentally: a lotta love for Valkyrie, Precious.




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Postby rudeboy » Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:41 pm

Sabin wrote:Ledger for me a lead. The movie's about him and he takes up a ton of screen-time. That makes him as much of a lead as you can. Your Redgrave argument is bollocks.

I'm inclined to agree. He dominates the film, whether he's on-screen or off, and was such an integral part of the marketing, the hype and the phenomenon of The Dark Knight that I'd sway that way too. It's a Hopkins in Silence of the Lambs scenario, only with more screentime. Or, for that matter, Pfeiffer in Batman Returns - a lead role for sure, with more screentime (at least in the movie's first half) than Keaton's Batman and a detailed character set-up.

Do see In Bruges again, Sabin. Gleeson is only supporting in the way Hardy supported Laurel.




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Postby Eric » Mon Feb 02, 2009 1:03 pm

Precious Doll wrote:Best Film
Otto; or, Up with Dead People

Best Director
Bruce LaBruce for Otto; or, Up with Dead People

OK, so we didn't meet up on Viva, but at least there's this.

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Postby flipp525 » Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:30 am

Let's get real here: The Golden Globes will throw any performance into "lead" in order to fill up the musical/comedy category. Using the Golden Globes as your barometer, you'd also need to argue that Batman '89 is a comedy or a musical, which it clearly isn't.



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Postby Sabin » Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:21 am

What do you mean "By who?" Nicholson was nominated for a LEADING Golden Globe in 1989. And also: he is a lead. The movie's about him and he has a ton of screen time. Lead.

I don't want to get into a big thing here. I can understand the argument about Brendan Gleeson actually and once I see the movie again I may switch him, but Ledger for me a lead. The movie's about him and he takes up a ton of screen-time. That makes him as much of a lead as you can. Your Redgrave argument is bollocks.
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Postby dws1982 » Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:16 am

--flipp525 wrote:
--dws1982 wrote:
--OscarGuy wrote:Was Jack Nicholson ever considered lead for the original Batman?

Yes.

By who?

The Golden Globe voters. So that's several people.




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Postby flipp525 » Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:10 am

--dws1982 wrote:
--OscarGuy wrote:Was Jack Nicholson ever considered lead for the original Batman?

Yes.

By who? There is no reasonable or rational argument that exists to argue that Jack Nicholson gives a lead performance in Batman '89. Who were these people supporting him as a lead? I just simply don't believe it.

We've all justifiably railed against the egregious shoehorning of lead performances into support for the purposes of awards-consideration (i.e., the infamous Casey Affleck situation last year, PSH who clearly gives a male lead performance in Doubt, the attempted category fraud of Kate Winslet in The Reader this year), but to elevate any performance to lead status simply because they're "important" or "drive the story" is ridiculous. Vanessa Redgrave's character drove almost the entire narrative of Julia. Should she have been promoted as Jane Fonda's co-lead?

The Jennifer Hudson/Dreamgirls comparison isn't germane. Her placement in support only served as an unfortuante reinforcement of the idea of that Effie White should be viewed in some way in deference to Deena Jones and, by extension, Beyonce -- argument which also seems to support the real-life subjugation of Florence Ballard, the true talent of The Supremes and the elevation of Diana Ross, Deena's counterpart. You can write an entire paper on the subject of that category placement. Throwing it out there as an example of why Ledger should go lead this year here is misshapen.

Marshall's Chicago is very clearly framed by Roxie Hart's story and much of the film exists in her imagination (a clear departure from the Broadway incarnation in which Bebe Neurwirth and Ann Reinking were both promoted as co-leads). Again, an improper comparison.




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Postby dws1982 » Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:56 am

--OscarGuy wrote:Was Jack Nicholson ever considered lead for the original Batman?

Yes.

And I doubt he'll make my top five, but I would put Heath Ledger in Lead. As of right now, he'd probably be fourth in that category for me. Michael Caine, Morgan Freeman, Gary Oldman (the heart and soul of the Nolan Batman films, in my opinion)...those are genuinely supporting roles. Nearly every plot point in the film hinges on the Joker or is set into motion by him. The movie is practically handed over to him. He and Bale are two poles that the entire film spins around.

I would put Ledger in Lead, just like I would put Velma Kelly in Chicago and Effie White in Dreamgirls in Lead (both of which are Lead at the Tonys, but were put in Supporting because the actresses wouldn't win in Lead at the Oscars) and just like I think Meryl Streep was rightly placed in Lead for The Devil Wears Prada.

He's not as clear a Lead as Casey Affleck was last year or Philip Seymour Hoffman is this year, and I'm not going to run around screaming category fraud. But I do think Lead would've been the more appropriate placement.




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Postby OscarGuy » Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:16 am

I've never bought this idea that Heath Ledger is lead in Batman. He's not lead. He's a central villain, but not lead, IMO. Was Jack Nicholson ever considered lead for the original Batman? Would you consider Darth Vader lead in Star Wars?

No. They are supporting characters inasmuch as it isn't THEIR story, but the lead character's story (i.e. Batman and Luke Skywalker). They are the characters learning and discovering and resolving.
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Postby flipp525 » Mon Feb 02, 2009 9:28 am

--rudeboy wrote:
--Sabin wrote:BEST ACTOR
Heath Ledger, The Dark Knight

BEST SUPPORTING ACTOR
Brendan Gleeson, In Bruges

Sabin, I understand the reasoning behind positioning Ledger in lead - but surely Brendan Gleeson is very much a lead in In Bruges too. The film's a complete two-hander, with only Ralph Fiennes' late entry stealing some thunder from the wonderful double act.

On the other hand, I really don't see the reasoning. He's a supporting character. Certainly, his screentime is amplified in this iteration of the franchies, but this is the story of Bruce Wayne/Batman, an orbit in which the Joker revolves. It's a bit of a stretch to call Ledger's a lead performance. Is Aaron Eckhart's a lead performance as well? I mean, come on.

Precious Doll, what did Alison Pill do in Milk to merit a nomination? Just curious what your thoughts are. She physically looked the part and was capable in the sort of butch, take-the-reins sort of way, but I thought she had very little to do in the film.




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Postby rudeboy » Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:42 am

--Sabin wrote:BEST ACTOR
Heath Ledger, The Dark Knight

BEST SUPPORTING ACTOR
Brendan Gleeson, In Bruges

Sabin, I understand the reasoning behind positioning Ledger in lead - but surely Brendan Gleeson is very much a lead in In Bruges too. The film's a complete two-hander, with only Ralph Fiennes' late entry stealing some thunder from the wonderful double act.




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Postby Precious Doll » Mon Feb 02, 2009 4:04 am

I'll do an update in about 4 to 5 months time once I have had a chance to catch up with lower profile films.

Best Film

Battle for Haditha
Il Divo
Milk
**My Winnipeg
Otto; or, Up with Dead People

Best Director

Nick Broomfield for Battle for Haditha
Bruce LaBruce for Otto; or, Up with Dead People
**Guy Maddin for My Winnipeg
Paolo Sorrentino for Il Divo
Gus Van Sant for Milk

Best Actor

Tom Cruise for Valkyrie
Sean Penn for Milk
Mickey Rourke for The Wrestler
**Toni Servillo for Il Divo
Thomas Turgoose for Somers Town

Best Actress

Kate Beckinsale for Snow Angels
Anna Faris for The House Bunny
Melissa Leo for Frozen River
Julianne Moore for Savage Grace
**Kristin Scott Thomas for I've Loved You So Long

Best Supporting Actor

Josh Brolin for Milk
**Bill Nighy for Valkyrie
Jamie Parker for Valkyrie
Terence Stamp for Valkyrie
Tom Wilkinson for Valkyrie

Best Supporting Actress

Jane Liao for Help Me Eros
Alison Pill for Milk
**Ann Savage for My Winnipeg
Marisa Tomei for The Wrestler
Elsa Zylberstein for I've Loved You So Long




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